Evolution... Do we believe?

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
All natural selection does, is tend to eliminate the unfit, and change the alleles available to the population in the next generation. The second thing is the creative part, since it alters the genome of the population to be more fit. And that produces evolutionary novelty.

That is a common misconception by evolutionists based on wishful thinking... not science.

If you were right, then Hall's bacteria could never have evolved a new irreducibly complex enzyme system. But they did. You just collided head-on with reality, again.

'Natural selection' can SOMETIMES remove the unfit from a population.

And it also determines the allleles available for recombination and mutation in the next generation. Which is how those bacteria gradually evolved an efficient new system. Evolutionary novelty is driven by mutation and natural selection

It can NEVER add information to the genome.

Every new mutation in a population adds information. That goes on all the time. Would you like me to show you the math, again? But evolution, when it produces novel features, might increase information or reduce information. Creationists, as you have seen, generally have no idea what "information" means, and can't even calculate it.

Natual selection is a losing proposition.

God thought otherwise. Turns out He's right and you're wrong. Together, mutation and natural selection produce all those new features. Neither, by themselves, are capable of doing much. Which was Darwin's great discovery.

Here's a hint: If you want to quotemine a source, it's not a good idea to put out the link, because people can check on it. From the link you touted:

It is important to remember that natural selection has no plan, no memory, and no goal. It is a stochastic process, and has no intellect or creative power. Its cumulative effects over time, however, can be incredible. In this sense, it is like continental drift, a nonthinking process that produces incredible, beautiful, and complicated results.
http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios101/Selexio.htm

So if natural selection often tends to remove genetic variation, from where does all that new variation come? Mutation. Most of us have dozens of mutations not present in either parent. This shouldn't surprise you; you've been told before.

If you can't be good, try to be more careful.

 

[Interplanner]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Yes we all have beliefs about the past. My beliefs are that God created exactly as stated in Genesis. Genesis is foundational to every Christian doctrine and Genesis is foundational to the gospel. *Theistic evolution erodes the foundations to doctrines of God, Christ, sin, salvation and more. As well, theistic evolution leads younger people to have a low view of scripture...that it does not mean what it says.
IOW... when someone try to make God's Word "more sensible".... watch out, because here comes compromise.
It may not be sensible to someone that Jesus was born of a virgin.... it may not be sensible that the highest mountains on Earth were covered in water.... it may not be sensible that God created in 6 days. But that is what His Word tells us

OK, I just needed to know why you dismissed views about things that happened a long time ago.

Hopefully we are all getting closer to 2 Peter 3. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112445

The sensibility of God forming the world as it now is in 6 days depends entirely on definition of terms. He can abridge any process he created, to be sure.

I'm not a theistic evolutionist. That's why I have placed 'formless and void' at the top of the task list to be completed, to be squared away. I see this post is one more post in which it has not been addressed. Gen 1 is saying there have been abrupt changes and that things that existed prior to the 6 days were abruptly different from what we have now. There may have been evolution, but certainly not after 'formless and void.'

The evolutionists for their part have systematically ignored world cosmology. Almost all cosmologies have a creator that defeats a massive sea lizard and forms this world from the aftermath of that. The Hebrew expression 'formless and void' is strikingly similar to the stage between the defeat and the act of forming in all the other cosmologies, and we find in Psalms and Job that a massive sea monster has been defeated by the Creator-Redeemer God. We also find a deep-seated fear of the waters moving beyond their bounds.

 

[6days]

That is a common misconception by evolutionists based on wishful thinking... not science.

'Natural selection' can SOMETIMES remove the unfit from a population.*It can NEVER add information to the genome.

So if natural selection often tends to remove genetic variation, from where does all that new variation come? Mutation.

You are making progress! Yes, mutations do add variation...and natural selection leads to the loss of genetic variation.*

 

[6days]

The sensibility of God forming the world as it now is in 6 days depends entirely on definition of terms.

Sure...if you mean defining terms in a manner consistent with other scripture.*

I'm not a theistic evolutionist. That's why I have placed 'formless and void' at the top of the task list to be completed, to be squared away. I see this post is one more post in which it has not been addressed. Gen 1 is saying there have been abrupt changes and that things that existed prior to the 6 days

So....definition of terms is important?

I get the impression you want to re-write scripture.

What are the first three words in the Bible?*

"IN THE BEGINNING...."

You want to change that to...
"In a new beginning..."?
"In a beginning..."?

God created the earth initially as formless, dark, empty and watery. Over the next 6 days God created, formed, *and *filled. There is nothing there at all about things existing before the beginning.*

.*

 

[Interplanner]

1:1 is a section title. It is not 'action' in the account.

When that sinks in , you may realize that there was a lot going on before day 1.

God doesn't create 'formless and void' unless there has been a problem to deal with, something that needed to be stopped, etc.

 

[Jose Fly]

'Natural selection' means that sometimes the weak die.

So your position is that natural selection is a real thing. Is it also your position that populations evolve and speciation happens?

 

[Stripe]

1:1 is a section title.

Is it a "section title" every other time the Bible refers to it?

 

[everready]

It is hard to believe that some believe that Adam was a monkey. :rotfl:

When the evolutionists stand before Jesus that proud haughty look will disappear when they realize Jesus doesn't look like a monkey after all.


everready

 

[6days]

God doesn't create 'formless and void' unless there has been a problem to deal with, something that needed to be stopped, etc.

Either God is right...or you.
He tells us He created formless and void, then filled and formed over the next six days.

 

[Cruciform]

...Jesus doesn't look like a monkey after all.

Your vast and glaring ignorance of both Christianity and science is noted. :thumb:

 

[Interplanner]

Either God is right...or you.
He tells us He created formless and void, then filled and formed over the next six days.

The only other usage is Jer 4:23.

2 Pet 3 says there is quite a bit of time between the existence of the heavens and the forming of earth out of water and through water. That's another indication that 1:1 is a section title, and 1:2 shows the setting of the forming of the earth, without saying how long it had been there or what was going on, just that it had to be stopped, judged, etc.

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry to all, its 4:23.

 

[6days]

2 Pet 3 says there is quite a bit of time between the existence of the heavens and the forming of earth out of water and through water.

2 Peter 3 says no such thing.
Genesis and Exodus tell us God created in 6 days... each with a evening and morning.
Exegetical evaluation of scripture throughout OT and NT is clear. God created in six days, and humans were created from the beginning of creation... not billions of years later.

As well, your 'theology' puts billions of years of death and suffering before sin, which is inconsistent with the teachings of Christ and the gospel message. Christ died physically, to defeat the curse of physical death.....offering for us to join Him in resurrection.

 

[Interplanner]

no its no conflict. It doesn't change anything about the 6 days. You are stuck in a few debates playing pong to a few slow motion balls coming at you.

The vocab in Peter is distinct about these things.

So let's start with: show that the amount of time of the stage known as 'formless and void' takes up almost no time; that's what your saying.

I'm not messing with the 6 days (although I do have the literary question because they are there without a local star). I'm only talking about the amount of time between 'formless and void' and its length and then the moment when forming began.

You have completely misunderstood me by writing the 2nd paragraph above.

 

[Interplanner]

Is it a "section title" every other time the Bible refers to it?

1:1 is a title. The action of the account is in v2+.

cp 2:4
5:1 etc all through Genesis.

I listed about 10 the other day and then stopped.

Jer 4:23's context (of Israel's destruction) tells us what kind of conditions God makes something 'formless and void.' It is an act of judgement.

 

[Kdall]

When the evolutionists stand before Jesus that proud haughty look will disappear when they realize Jesus doesn't look like a monkey after all.


everready

You're so right. 'Evolutionists' obviously think Jesus was a monkey. Great point

 

[Kdall]

Either God is right...or you.
He tells us He created formless and void, then filled and formed over the next six days.

I see you still haven't looked up "allegory" in a dictionary. Or picked up a science book. Or done any real research on the Bible

 

[Kdall]

Your vast and glaring ignorance of both Christianity and science is noted. :thumb:

My thoughts exactly. Well said

 

[The Barbarian]

You're so right. 'Evolutionists' obviously think Jesus was a monkey. Great point

You know he's going to think you're serious, don't you?

 

[Kdall]

You know he's going to think you're serious, don't you?

I'm counting on it