Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It looks as if AMR has given up his quest to turn me into a card carrying Calvinist. (CCC for short)

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

AMR and I had quite a bout yesterday. A front and center display of "Verbal Fisticuffs" was on display for everyone to see. He's an intelligent and articulate type of guy. The only problem is he doesn't have the truth at his disposal which is very unfortunate. Outside of this arena, I'm almost certain he and I would hit it off just fine. However, this is the nature of the beast so to say.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Unfortunately, I can't say the same things about Nangster. She's cranky, grouchy, and sort of a boorish Curmudgeon. Very unfriendly through and through.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If I were to choose my favorite Calvinist, it would have to be Lon. He's respectful, civil, intelligent, and kind-hearted. Quite the Gentleman.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

On the other hand, Tulip Bee is unruly, Unintelligent, uncivil to the core, and a wee bit pretentious. B57 and Nanja are fanatical Ultra-Hyper-Calvinists and somewhere out there in the Universe somewhere.

 

[Rosenritter]

If indeed one IS elect,would it not make sense that God would find a way to get the "Message" to them, one way or another? I mean, what if an "Elect" wasn't a church going type? Couldn't/wouldn't God find a way to let him/her KNOW that they were of the chosen Elect? What if one of the "Elect" were in the deepest parts of Africa where no Missionary had ever been? In my humble opinion, Calvinism is one of Satan's best counterfeits. Like any good counterfeit, not everybody is tricked by it. Some see through the facade and see it for what it is. According to the Bible, one must first, "Hear the Gospel." Next, they realize they're a lost sinner in need of a Savior. By their own free will, they must decide to accept or reject the Gospel. After they have decided to place ALL their faith in Christ as their Savior, the Holy Spirit indwells, seals, and baptizes (not by water) them into the Body of Christ and they receive the righteousness of Christ. They are then, considered a child of God.

It's very important that a person reading and studying the Bible are worshipping the True God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. In my opinion, Calvinism isn't doing either. Therefore, how can they be saved? Calvinism CHANGES the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to fit their "Belief system." Basically, they create their own god. They make him mesh with their way of thinking. A "Grace Believer" can look at a certain verse of Scripture and see one thing while a Calvinist sees something entirely different.

Calvinists put on their "Special Calvin Glasses" before reading Scripture. The glasses have a built-in filter. Calvinists see NO free will (concerning humanity) in the Bible. Grace Believers see free will throughout the entire Bible. It all comes back to those "Glasses."

If Calvinism is true, and what AMR said is true (that God chose preaching as the way he calls the elect) then we know that God is indeed a respecter of persons and chose to condemn huge amounts of peoples in "unreachable" lands, mainly only choosing to call and redeem those with light-colored skins.

 

[Rosenritter]

Such a view assumes God is impotent, unable to bring those marked out for election into the Kingdom by the ordinary means of the hearing of the Gospel, not to mention any extraordinary means God is free to use. If one is worried about the pagan in the jungle then one should get busy supporting the promulgation of the Good News to them, for the Great Commission is but one of God's means by which His ends are made manifest.

Scripture teaches us none of God's children are lost to Him. I trust God to make good on His promises. Do you? Do you believe God knows the exact number of all who have been and will be brought into the Kingdom? I hope you do, hence, God also knows how to pull that off and has the power to do so.
More opinions sans anything resembling an actual argument to support them.

AMR

Do you realize how inconsistent your words are with what you claim to believe?

If one is worried about the pagan in the jungle, according to your belief there is nothing that can be done for them that was not already done.

 

[Rosenritter]

Define "free will", GM.

Mine: the ability to choose according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses.

Yours?

AMR

AMR, did you mean "choose" or did you mean "act on that choice?" For example, hatred is a sin, it is the sin of murder, but it isn't always acted on. We have the free will to choose to love or hate, and our inability to carry out our will (such as in the case of hatred-murder) does not mean that it was something outside of our free will.

 

[Rosenritter]

The FOG Index (look it up) of my posts is well within the grasp of the average high schooler, GM. You do not know what you are talking about.

AMR

AMR, there's something about the way you write posts that has me (an avid reader) glossing-skipping over them. Perhaps its something about posting huge sections of the WCF. They don't seem to address the actual questions being put to you.

GM has a different issue... he writes in italics which is hard for me to read.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Free will - The ability to respond to God in both the affirmative or in rejection in addition the ability to grieve His Spirit in this life. This however i believe is first prompted by God, but that He calls all men to this decision at some point in their lives.
...

We have a choice in this life to receive or reject Him in this life, but that we cannot make that decision untill He prompts it with His Spirit (opens our eyes in order that we can respond)

[MENTION=13987]Angel4Truth[/MENTION]

Your "we cannot make that decision" and "in order that we can respond" implies to me that no one is able to respond until God first opens their ears. Am I understanding you correctly? If so, then we are actually in agreement, as it is my contention the lost have no "ears to hear" spiritual things until God first acts, as in Eze. 36:26.

Moreover, if I have understood you correctly, the first part of your response, that free will means "the ability to respond to God" requires some modification as your use of ability is not present until, as you say it, "prompted" by God.

I suppose the issue is what does "prompted" mean here exactly? Do you think men posses the ability qua ability before prompting, then what is this ability exactly. Ability qua ability implies "ableness". Are men able to respond to salvific related spiritual matters without any action from God? If you think so, then your prompting by God can only mean a special calling of sorts that awakens this ability to respond to spiritual matters. If all possess the ability, this would beg the question of what distinguishes someone who gets this special calling from someone who does not. It also sounds like prevenient grace, the Romanist doctrine that has leaked into non-Calvinistic views that fallen men still retain some miniscule "seed" of righteousness, such that fallen men are not spiritually dead, but only badly wounded. In other words, perhaps you are defining free will along the lines of Wesley's Order of Salvation (see the link included above):

"Human beings are totally incapable of responding to God without God first empowering them to have faith. This empowerment is known as "Prevenient Grace." Prevenient Grace doesn't save us but, rather, comes before anything that we do, drawing us to God, making us WANT to come to God, and enabling us to have faith in God. Prevenient Grace is Universal, in as much as all humans receive it, regardless of their having heard of Jesus. It is manifested in the deep-seated desire of most humans to know God."

Good discussion. Thank you!

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

AMR, there's something about the way you write posts that has me (an avid reader) glossing-skipping over them. Perhaps its something about posting huge sections of the WCF. They don't seem to address the actual questions being put to you.

GM has a different issue... he writes in italics which is hard for me to read.

Thanks

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If Calvinism is true, and what AMR said is true (that God chose preaching as the way he calls the elect) then we know that God is indeed a respecter of persons and chose to condemn huge amounts of peoples in "unreachable" lands, mainly only choosing to call and redeem those with light-colored skins.

In no way would I say Calvinists have any "Racial inclinations." They simply believe (erroneously) that God chose who He would save before the foundation of the world and who would be sentenced to eternal damnation.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists believe "Another gospel" and worship a "Man-made god." That's the plain and the simple of it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Calvinists have their own interpretation/misinterpretations, They have their own terminology, they see no Free will where there is an abundance of it, They change the character and intent of the God of the Bible and they follow "Another gospel."

More of the same opinions. You have stated them often. I have read them. I await some support for them.

Trying to debate with a Calvinist is an "An exercise in Futility." That's why I'm hesitant to get into all this with you. Calvinists have their own lingo. They are thoroughly indoctrinated. They have all their misguided ducks in a row. They are pretentious, arrogant and believe they have all of the answers. No one can win a debate with a Calvinist.

I have responded to your numerous self-called "lectures" with plain words, GM. You continue to ridicule me and expect me to sit idly by while you do so. Rather than "hesitate" to "get into this" with me, you do not hesitate to continue heaping ridicule upon me. Why not engage and see what happens?

Even if the other person makes a good point, the Calvinist will not relent. No matter what, the Calvinist will consider himself the victor.

This is plainly not true GM. I am responding to any actual points you are making. When so moved, I am also returning the great deal of folly you also heap upon me in kind. You are drawing first blood here, not me. Why not cease with the broad characterizations and the discussion will move forward efficiently instead of me having to take the time to respond to sweeping characterizations.

So, come on AMR, you know this is useless to me and to you. We could go on all night and into tomorrow and still come to a dead end.

I am willing and able to engage specifically with you as long as it takes or until you call an end to it. Can we not learn together for the edification of all who may be lurking about?

You guys believe humanity has no free will and we Grace Believers say we do.

No. We guys most certainly believe man possesses free will. In fact our Confession states plainly:

"...nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established"

God has established our free will, GM. No one denies this.

The issue is what this majestic phrase, free will, actually means. I have answered your initially proffered attempt to define it and still await a rejoinder.

You believe God chose the "Elect" before the foundation of the world, we do not.

Well, if you (or your "we") are going to deny verses such as Ephesians 1:4, you should at least be able to defend with reasons why you deny the plain teachings of Holy Writ.

If you believe your salvation began with your choice to believe in Christ—a choice which was real and necessary by the way—then explain the "us" in Ephesians 1:4. The "us" is not an undefined mass of people, but us, you and me personally. He chose us. The "chose us" means to select from a larger group. And the way God did it was in relation to Christ. Christ was not an afterthought to election. God chose us to come to salvation in Christ, not apart from Christ. But it was us that God chose. These words are not strained at all in carrying this meaning that God chose particular people to be His children through their union with Christ.

As also clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 1:27–30, God chose particular kinds of people to be in the church. He did not just choose the church and leave its composition to man. He chose foolish individuals and called them into Christ. He chose some weak individuals and called them into Christ. He chose some low and despised individuals and called them into Christ. All so that no one might boast in anyone but the Lord.

Our salvation began before the creation of the universe when God planned the history of redemption, ordained the death and the resurrection of his Son, and chose you to be His own through Christ. This is a great objective ground for assurance.

To make crystal clear Paul said in verse 30 (literally): "From him [God] you are in Christ Jesus." Or as the NASB says, "By his doing you are in Christ Jesus." Or the NIV: "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus." In other words, GM, it is just as though Paul knew that someone like yourself would come along some day and say that God does not choose who is in Christ, but only chooses Christ and any who put themselves in Christ. So Paul teaches us in verses 1 Cor. 1:27–29, that God chose the individuals who would make up the church in Christ. And Paul says in verse 1 Cor. 1:30 that it is by God's doing that they are put in Christ.

Finally, we see James 2:5 teaching the very same thing from a slightly different perspective: God chose the poor to come to faith and be in the church, so be careful that you not discriminate against the poor.

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

Here in James we see the same teachings of Eph. 1:4 and 1 Corinthians 1:27–30. How wonderful is the agreement of the full counsel of Scripture; we do ourselves a disservice to ignore it. God has chosen not an undefined mass of people, but particular poor individuals to be rich in faith and to be treated a certain way. The personal, individual nature of election has very practical consequences. If God has chosen to bring the poor into Christ, we are not to dishonor them.

You believe that humanity is too depraved to choose the things of God and we disagree on the basis of Free will. It goes on, and on and on. Why bother? You're wasting your time and mine and vise-versa. we'll NEVER come to a meeting of the minds, so, I'll let you take the glory for Calvinists Universally. How's that sound to ya?

In other words, you are unwilling to engage substantively for you assume the Spirit that dwells within us is incapable of revealing the truths that come from necessary division (1 Cor. 11:19)? Are we to run from disagreements among the faithful and let truth remain hidden? Is not, per Scripture, division that must exist (1 Cor. 11:19) a means of God by which truth breaks forth into the light?

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A4T, you used Luke 13:34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." A verse I often use to PROVE the free will of humanity. The bold sentance is what I call your attention to.

A passage to which you have yet to explain, versus just quoting and declaring victory, in response to the following:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...here-Between&p=4558668&viewfull=1#post4558668

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Don't get me wrong, AMR is articulate, intelligent, well-learned, and totally serving "Another gospel and another god." Sigh--

I don't have to prove it, however, I do have to believe it.

To avoid sinning, per the ninth commandment you actually do have to prove it...

Spoiler

1. Which is the ninth commandment?
The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour (Exod 20:16; Deut 5:20).


2. What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
A. The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man (Zech 8:16; Eph 4:25), and the good name of our neighbour, as well as our own (3 John 12); appearing and standing for the truth (Prov 31:8–9); and from the heart (Ps 15:2), sincerely (2 Chr 19:9), freely (1 Sam 19:4–5; Jer 9:3), clearly (Josh 7:19; Jer 42:4; Acts 20:20), and fully (2 Sam 14:18–20; Acts 20:27), speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice (Lev 19:15; Prov 14:5, 25), and in all other things whatsoever (Isa 63:8; 2 Cor 1:17–18; Eph 4:25; Col 3:9); a charitable esteem of our neighbours (Heb 6:9; 1 Cor 13:7); loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name (Rom 1:8; 2 John 4; 3 John 3–4); sorrowing for (Ps 119:158; 2 Cor 2:4; 12:21), and covering of their infirmities (Prov 17:9; 1 Pet 4:8); freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces (1 Cor 1:4–5, 7; 2 Tim 1:4–5), defending their innocency (1 Sam 22:14; Ps 82:3); a ready receiving of a good report (1 Cor 13:6–7), and unwillingness to admit of an evil report (Ps 15:3), concerning them; discouraging tale-bearers (Prov 25:23), flatterers (Prov 26:24–25), and slanderers (Ps 101:5); love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth (Prov 22:1; John 8:49; 2 Cor 11:18, 23); keeping of lawful promises (Ps 15:4); studying and practising of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report (Phil 4:8).


3. What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbours, as well as our own (1 Sam 17:28; 2 Sam 16:3; 1:9–10, 15–16; Luke 3:14), especially in public judicature (Lev 19:15; Hab 1:4); giving false evidence (Prov 19:5; 6:16, 19), suborning false witnesses (Acts 6:13), wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, out-facing and over-bearing the truth (Jer 9:3, 5; Acts 24:2, 5; Ps 12:3–4; 52:1–4); passing unjust sentence (Prov 17:15; 1 Kgs 21:9–13), calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked (Isa 5:23); forgery (1 Kgs 21:8; Ps 119:69; Luke 19:8; 16:5–7), concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause (Lev 5:1; Deut 13:8; Acts 5:3, 8–9; 2 Tim 4:16), and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves (1 Kgs 1:6; Lev 19:17; Isa 58:1), or complaint to others (Isa 59:4); speaking the truth unseasonably (Prov 29:11), or maliciously to a wrong end (1 Sam 22:9–10; Ps 52:1–4), or perverting it to a wrong meaning (Ps 56:5; John 2:19; with Matt 26:60–61), or in doubtful or equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice (Gen 3:5; 26:7, 9); speaking untruth (Isa 59:13), lying (Lev 19:11; Col 3:9), slandering (Ps 50:20), backbiting (Ps 15:3; Rom 1:30), detracting (Jas 4:11; Tit 3:2; Jer 38:4), tale-bearing (Lev 19:16), whispering (Rom 1:29–30; Prov 16:28), scoffing (Gen 21:9; with Gal 4:29; Isa 28:22), reviling (1 Cor 6:10), rash (Matt 7:1), harsh (Acts 28:4; Jas 2:13), and partial censuring (Gen 38:24; John 7:24; Rom 2:1); misconstructing intentions, words, and actions (Neh 6:6–8; Rom 3:8; Ps 69:10; 1 Sam 1:13–15; 2 Sam 10:3); flattering (Ps 12:2–3), vain-glorious boasting (2 Tim 3:2), thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others (Luke 18:9, 11; Rom 12:16; 1 Cor 4:6; Acts 12:22; Gal 5:26; Exod 4:10–14); denying the gifts and graces of God (Job 27:5–6; 4:6; Luke 9:49–50; 2 Cor 10:10; Acts 2:13); aggravating smaller faults (Isa 29:20–21; Matt 7:3–5); hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession (Prov 28:13; 30:20; Gen 3:12–13; Jer 2:35; 2 Kgs 5:25; Gen 4:9); unnecessary discovering of infirmities (Gen 9:22; Prov 25:9–10); raising false rumours (Exod 23:1), receiving and countenancing evil reports (Ps 41:7–8; Prov 29:12; Jer 20:10), and stopping our ears against just defence (Acts 7:56–57; Job 31:13–14); evil suspicion (1 Cor 13:5; 1 Tim 6:4); envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any (Num 11:29; Matt 21:15), endeavouring or desiring to impair it (Ezra 4:12–13; Dan 6:3–4), rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy (Jer 48:27); scornful contempt (Ps 35:15–16, 21; Matt 27:28–29), fond admiration (Jude 16; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor 3:21); breach of lawful promises (Rom 1:31; 2 Tim 3:3); neglecting such things as are of good report (1 Sam 2:24; 2 Sam 12:14), and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering what we can in others, such things as procure an ill name (2 Sam 12:13; 13:12–13; Prov 5:8–9; 6:33; Phil 3:18–19; 2 Pet 2:2).


Src: WLC- [url]http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w_proofs/WLC_091-150.html[/URL]

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Looks like Nangster ran out of steam.

Why do you inject these little self-congratulatory statements? For one who is whining so much about others engaging you in the hope of declaring victory (untrue, of course), you seem more than willing to strain your arm as it attempts to pat your own back.

It is as if you think you have accomplished something. Yet the plain evidence herein, especially regarding my interaction with you, is that the only one running out of steam, scared off, etc., is yourself.

Something seems amiss in your personal makeup and all see this plainly. Examine yourself.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I have to tend to the wife's needs for now. Will return later in the evening if the Lord is willing.

BTW, my Shih Tzu, Tiny, is doing well after oral surgery. She lost 12 teeth, 4 by extraction, the remainder were loose and fell out during dental cleaning. Sigh. Dogs have around 48 teeth.

AMR

 

[fishrovmen]

Everything that we own comes from God. It was placed here on the earth when he created the earth. He knew what we would need. Your home, your car, even your diamond ring are all gifts from God. Why would you believe that he hasn't provided salvation and that you have to be predestinated?

This whole phrase is extremely confusing to come from someone who doesn't believe that God can even see people (according to you, He can only see His Son Jesus Christ, not individual people) and from someone who believes that God is not at all involved in the world. If God put material things on the earth BEFORE people were even created, things that in the scope of eternity are worthless, and He DETERMINED to give them to people as gifts, how could you possibly have an issue with God dispensing something of unequaled value that is eternal in the same way?

 

[Robert Pate]

The God of the Bible does not predestinate people to hell. People send themselves to hell because of unbelief.

The God of the Bible sends his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world, John 3:16.

Jesus said, "I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" John 12:47.

Jesus saves us by doing for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we have been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Paul said, "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

We become reconciled unto God by believing in Jesus Christ.

To teach or believe anything other than that, is to believe the devils lie.

I don't blame GM for not wanting to debate with you, you are a Gospel rejecting reprobate.