Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

A few reasons why I dismiss Calvinism:

1) Too-Illogical for me.
2) Doesn't see the same God as I see in the Bible.
3) Doesn't preach the Gospel that I see.
4) Says there's no sign of free will in the Bible when I see an enormous amount of it.
5) A copious amount of false doctrine.
6)It rings a loud "Another gospel" bell.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists see free will as well. The issue is what does "free will" mean?

Scripture teaches us that the lost cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12) and is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20). Given this dire condition of the lost, how do you describe the limits of their free will? Can these persons choose to seek God? Can these persons understand rightly? If you answer in the affirmative, then what of the clear teachings of Scripture to the contrary? If you deny that these persons can seek God or understand rightly, as Scripture clearly teaches, then "free will" means something less than what you claim and you are now in agreement with the Calvinist and the Bible.

Until you can articulate what you mean by "free will" there will always be a disconnect in discussions. Calvinists do not deny man is free to choose. We just affirm that this freedom to choose is not something that is uncaused. Given that Scripture teaches that the lost are slaves of the devil, we affirm that their choices are quite free to choose according to devilish motives. We deny the lost are able to choose according to Godly motives, else they would not be slaves at all and Scripture is not truthful in its teachings.

AMR

Calvinist Propaganda at its best.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists misinterpret/misrepresent God, His Gospel, and His Holy, Inspired Word.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Can it get any worse?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Calvinist Propaganda at its best.

Why avoid a direct answer? What exactly do you mean when you say "free will"?

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I used to listen to "Family Radio" owned and operated by Harold Camping in the 1970s. They played mainly sermons by Presbyterian Calvinists. John MacArthur was one of the preachers. Camping went on to predicting the end of the world. He supposedly knew the day it would happen and people believed him and did crazy things. Camping came from a "Dutch Reformed" background. Just thought I'd throw that in.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Why avoid a direct answer? What exactly do you mean when you say "free will"?

AMR

I mean if we hear the Grace Gospel we have the free will to choose to accept it or reject it. If we hear some other religion, philosophy, Cult, etc, we have the ability to freely place our faith in anything we so desire. God created humanity with that ability to choose. I realize Calvinists believe humanity isn't capable of that, because, humanity is depraved and will not accept the things of God. They also believe that God chose the Elect before the foundation of the world, etc, etc. I've heard the Calvinist stuff before, over the years. You guys interpret Scripture differently than most and therefore, there cannot be a meeting of the minds due to the different interpretations. You're not gonna agree with me and I'm not gonna agree with you. We both can agree on that fact.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I mean if we hear the Grace Gospel we have the free will to choose to accept it or reject it.

You have waved off Scripture's teachings about the lost being unable to understand, being slaves of the devil, not able to seek after God. You cannot make a statement as you just did until you can reconcile these verses I have quoted in my earlier post for starters.

You keep claiming something that you have not supported by anything that resembles proper hermeneutics. Your claim stands in direct contradiction with Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14. Explain how you traverse these clear teachings in order to arrive at your assertion.

deceitful and desperately sick
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

full of evil
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mark 7:22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
Mark 7:23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

not able
Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

must be quickened
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

cannot choose righteousness
Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

loves darkness
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

does not seek for God
Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
Romans 3:12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

helpless and ungodly
Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

slave of sin
Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Romans 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Romans 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

dead in his trespasses
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

child of wrath
Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

cannot understand
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Please try to fit your view of this moral ability to choose wisely that you think the lost possess into the Scripture's teachings above. Show me, teach me, exactly how you interpret these verses to support your view.

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

yaa
AMR

At least we agree on that.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

[/I]You have waved off Scripture's teachings about the lost being unable to understand, being slaves of the devil, not able to seek after God. You cannot make a statement as you just did until you can reconcile these verses I have quoted in my earlier post for starters.

You keep claiming something that you have not supported by anything that resembles proper hermeneutics. Your claim stands in direct contradiction with Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14. Explain how you traverse these clear teachings in order to arrive at your assertion.

AMR

It's just ME and MY Bible.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Calvinist god is not the God of the Bible! The Calvinist gospel is "Another gospel." That's the plain and simple of it. When one believes that, with ALL their heart, mind, and soul, then, why does one need to prove anything else?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

AMR, one of your problems is, you mix Scripture that was pertaining to the House of Israel (Jews if you will) with Pauls's Gospel that was preached to the Gentiles. Therefore you wind up with an uneven mix of two different Gospels that were preached two thousand plus years ago.

The Kingdom Message being preached by Christ and His Apostles, including Peter to the House of Israel.
The Grace Gospel preached to the Gentiles by the Apostle Paul.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

AMR, it's no wonder you're so confused and misdirected.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Again, Christ, Peter and the rest of the Apostles preached the Kingdom Gospel to the House of Israel. Paul, on the other hand, preached the Grace Gospel to the Gentiles. You can't mix these together without ending up confused and having contradictions.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Today, in this Dispensation of Grace, the Grace Gospel taught by the Apostle Paul, is the only Gospel for both Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

That was a placeholder post that I created to reserve the slot below your previous post. Please see the final version. You are too trigger-happy in responding while I am editing my posts.

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Folks, don't allow yourself to be lured into Calvinism. It's filled to the brim with false doctrine and a false gospel.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well, enough of the "Verbal Fisticuffs" for tonight. I'll let you have the final word.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Your pattern is predictable.

You you are caught here all alone with no one to inject themselves into the thread and run interference for you. When so cornered and asked to offer a defense of your beliefs, you panic and wave off challenges, proceeding to post a bunch of naked assertions and streams of consciousness hoping to move the visible page along such that your inability to defend your views might be lost.

This panic mode tactic does not relieve you of the burden to support your claims (1 Peter 3:15). Return to here and teach us how you handle the matter at hand.

AMR

 

[musterion]

The God of the Bible does not hold people accountable for that which He knows they cannot help. He does hold them accountable when they choose not to do right or choose to do wrong. That's the whole point of one's conscience bearing witness against him and being judged according to one's works.

That is just.

Can the same be said of Calvinism's depiction of God? No. From before creation, those He reprobated were intended to be totally unable to do what would please Him -- which He alone can enable -- and yet He holds them accountable for it just the same, as if they DID know and WERE able to obey Him, but chose not to.

That is unjust.