Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

With all due respect AMR, I have my way of writing and others have their way of writing.

Nothing I posted is meant to imply anything negative about what you posted, GM.

I just took your post as a launch pad to provide some further insights into the matter of Trinitarianism, given the bunch of unbelievers posting in the thread who necessarily, given their unbelief, deny Trinitarianism. While I may not speak to these folks, I often speak at them when opportunity arises. Your post provided me that opportunity.

No more or less. All is good.

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Nothing I posted is meant to imply anything negative about what you posted, GM.

I just took your post as a launch pad to provide some further insights into the matter of Trinitarianism, given the bunch of unbelievers posting in the thread who necessarily, given their unbelief, deny Trinitarianism. While I may not speak to these folks, I often speak at them when opportunity arises. Your post provided me that opportunity.

No more or less. All is good.

AMR

That's fair.

 

[beloved57]

Then you agree that your Calvinist God is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

You have 0 faith in God and even less in his Son Jesus Christ.

I agree you teach salvation by works, ignoring the death of Christ !

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Because it also tells us the name of who is sitting on that throne, and that his name is Jesus.

The Creator is sitting on the Throne. It also says that Jesus is sitting on that Throne. It also tells us that the Creator was Jesus. I would be baffled at how you could deny the obvious here. You chose the subject for the challenge. Will you pay attention or just dust yourself off as if nothing happened?

The text does not say Jesus is sitting on the throne.---

The Father is sitting on the throne and Jesus standing beside Him.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

... which does not contradict Jesus actually being God, and referring to God in heaven as "Father" while he is on earth in the flesh in the form of the "Son of God."

You continually keep coming back to the same claim which doesn't actually contradict anything. But God did say that he will not give his glory to another. I just realized I forgot to provide that quote.

Isaiah 42:8 KJV
(8) I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Yet Jesus uses the names of the LORD for himself in Revelation, and in the gospels he says that he has the same glory of God with God. And John says that in the beginning He who was become flesh and walked among us was God and created all things. I have never seen you answer these. You just keep saying "But Jesus said that God was his God!"

No.

Read the text fully.

The LORD will not give His Glory to anyone but to His servant jesus--

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Jesus said His father would now (2000 years ago)Glorify His Son as was promised before the foundation of the world--

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The Father Glorified Jesus with Himself (the Father).

There was no such thing as Jesus becoming unglorified to become a man and then Glorified again.

All texts only show that God has Glorified His son Jesus, due to His faithfulness in sacrificing his life even to the death of the cross--

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

The text does not say Jesus is sitting on the throne.---

The Father is sitting on the throne and Jesus standing beside Him.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

LA

It says that he who is on the throne calls himself Alpha and Omega. Then he who calls himself Alpha and Omega says his name is Jesus.

Now the only way you're going to avoid contradiction is if Alpha and Omega, on the throne, also goes by the name Jesus. It is no problem on my side when different forms or symbols are used with respect to God in heaven, God as he talked to them on Earth, and so forth. But for someone that says they are different people and one isn't God, that person has a problem.

 

[Rosenritter]

No.

Read the text fully.

The LORD will not give His Glory to anyone but to His servant jesus--

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Jesus said His father would now (2000 years ago)Glorify His Son as was promised before the foundation of the world--

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The Father Glorified Jesus with Himself (the Father).

There was no such thing as Jesus becoming unglorified to become a man and then Glorified again.

All texts only show that God has Glorified His son Jesus, due to His faithfulness in sacrificing his life even to the death of the cross--

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

LA

LA, you're missing the forest for the trees. "Is it not written, thou shalt worship the Lord they God, and him only shalt thou serve?" And did you not notice from the very words you posted, "Let all the angels of God worship him?"

 

[Rosenritter]

He doesn't lack anything, but everything he has, has been given to him by the father, and as he says himself, without the father I can do nothing. And he said, the father is greater than I.

Your seeing Christ as God, I'm seeing God in Christ.

I don't have to believe that Jesus is God to belong to God, and you don't have to agree with me. I believe that God wants our hearts right before him first and foremost and he wants us to have complete faith in him and to follow Jesus.

Actually, the God you envision lacks something. He lacks empathy and experience. Jesus was willing to experience things as we do, to walk a mile in our shoes to prove to us that he really does understand us, so that we can relate to him. He's not absent from events, not the Gnostic "God far away and detached" model...

 

[Rosenritter]

Genesis 1:26 states: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Notice the plurality in that verse? That speaks of the Trinity. (Three separate Entities, yet, they are ONE.)It's difficult for our finite minds to comprehend, therefore, humanity makes an effort to explain the Trinity in many different ways. Example: "the Egg has a yoke, outer fluid, and a shell, yet, the three make up "one Egg." That's only one example, however, there are numerous others.

John 1:1-3 states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Those verses let us know that it was Christ (The Word) that created all that there is.

Grosnick, the plural in Genesis 1:26 is not a proof that God is multiple people or have conversations with himself. There are alternative explanations, including:

1) God is speaking on behalf of his heavenly host. That is, the equivalent of the royal "We" like when the Queen says "We are not amused."
2) God is speaking with his heavenly host, perhaps even allowing them to participate in the process in some way. For example, when God let the angels submit ideas in 2 Chronicles 18:19.

The verse does seem to indicate that there were multiple people present. However, considering the great number of angels in existence that most people allow would have been created prior to Day 6, it doesn't prove that there are multiple Gods or multiple people called God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

It says that he who is on the throne calls himself Alpha and Omega. Then he who calls himself Alpha and Omega says his name is Jesus.

Only after the resurrection did Jesus become glorified with the Father Himself.

You do not truly believe.

Now the only way you're going to avoid contradiction is if Alpha and Omega, on the throne, also goes by the name Jesus. It is no problem on my side when different forms or symbols are used with respect to God in heaven, God as he talked to them on Earth, and so forth. But for someone that says they are different people and one isn't God, that person has a problem.

One is the Father in Heaven who is Spirit, and the other is His Son born through Mary.

Your modelism is spiritualism from the mystics, which denies Gods Son.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

LA, you're missing the forest for the trees. "Is it not written, thou shalt worship the Lord they God, and him only shalt thou serve?" And did you not notice from the very words you posted, "Let all the angels of God worship him?"

Jesus said to satan that He (Jesus) ought worship the Lord thy God and nor bow to satan.

It would not be necessary for God to command the angels to worship Jesus if He was always God, but scripture does say--

by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

and that because Jesus was obedient to the cross, NOT because He was God.

Jesus was MADE both Lord and Christ.

What do you not understand about MADE-

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


LA

 

[Rosenritter]

Only after the resurrection did Jesus become glorified with the Father Himself.

False.

John 17:5 KJV
(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Care to reconsider that statement?

 

[marhig]

Actually, the God you envision lacks something. He lacks empathy and experience. Jesus was willing to experience things as we do, to walk a mile in our shoes to prove to us that he really does understand us, so that we can relate to him. He's not absent from events, not the Gnostic "God far away and detached" model...

I don't know why you believe that, one thing I do know is that Christ humbled himself and came in flesh among us to bring us God, if he hadn't of humbled himself, then there would be many he would never have reached. and he still does reach others through his people as they are humbled.

The difference with me and some others is, I know that we have to walk the walk also, and follow him. Not just say we believe with our mouth, but we are to live it out. And once we do, and live by the spirit and suffer then we will have empathy and we'll be humbled and we'll be obedient to God and when we come down in the flesh we lift up Christ for all to see and those who hear his word and see his life once he is risen in his people will be healed. We must decrease and he must increase in and through us.

Like the serpent in the wilderness. It was made of brass, flesh tried by fire and strengthened, the people were those who had been bitten by fiery serpents, they had given into the lusts of their flesh and wrong spirits had a hold on them. But once they turned to the serpent of brass which is believing in and turning to Christ who came in flesh and overcame and is still coming in flesh through his people, and we listen to and obey the word of God, we will be healed and he will start to cast out the wrong in us and cleanse our hearts through the spirit, healing us and we will inherit eternal life. And as they walk out of darkness into light then you will see that they have been strengthened by God as they do his works, and you will see Christ in them and they too will have been tried by fire and they will be overcoming through Christ.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus said to satan that He (Jesus) ought worship the Lord thy God and nor bow to satan.

It would not be necessary for God to command the angels to worship Jesus if He was always God,

Jesus was MADE both Lord and Christ.

What do you not understand about MADE-
LA

Are you seriously asking questions, or merely arguing from a rigid posture?

When Jesus said "Thou shalt only worship the Lord thy God" that also meant himself. Spoken on more than one level, Jesus did happen to be the Lord his God. Jesus accepted worship. He was worshiped on multiple occasions, and as it is written, "Let all the angels of God worship him."

Do you have a transcript of God ordering angels to worship someone else? Read the passage in its context, "Let all the angels of God worship him" is from the perspective of the men on the ground who knew Jesus first as a carpenter, second as a prophet, third as their Lord and God. Regardless, you keep forgetting, that it is written, "Worship only the Lord thy God."

Third, I think you fail to understand the meaning of the word "made."

Hebrews 2:9 KJV
(9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Given that he beheld Satan fall from heaven like lightning, that he was with God in glory before the world began, that he created all things that were created, and that in the beginning, he WAS God, that means that he was "made" a little lower than the angels but before this he was NOT lower than the angels. What's the only being higher than the angels which the Book says He Created?

"Made both Lord and Christ" means that the man that they knew, the man that they assumed to be a man, was made both Lord and Christ when it was time for him to assume those titles and according to the plan. Before that, he was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.

Like I was asking before, which was a real question, are you simply posturing aggressively, or do you really want to answer these questions?

 

[Rosenritter]

I don't know why you believe that, one thing I do know is that Christ humbled himself and came in flesh among us to bring us God, if he hadn't of humbled himself, then there would be many he would never have reached. and he still does reach others through his people as they are humbled.

The difference with me and some others is, I know that we have to walk the walk also, and follow him. Not just say we believe with our mouth, but we are to live it out. And once we do, and live by the spirit and suffer then we will have empathy and we'll be humbled and we'll be obedient to God and when we come down in the flesh we lift up Christ for all to see and those who hear his word and see his life once he is risen in his people will be healed. We must decrease and he must increase in and through us.

Like the serpent in the wilderness. It was made of brass, flesh tried by fire and strengthened, the people were those who had been bitten by fiery serpents, they had given into the lusts of their flesh and wrong spirits had a hold on them. But once they turned to the serpent of brass which is believing in and turning to Christ who came in flesh and overcame and is still coming in flesh through his people, and we listen to and obey the word of God, we will be healed and he will start to cast out the wrong in us and cleanse our hearts through the spirit healing us and we will inherit eternal life and as they walk out of darkness into light then you will see that they have been strengthened by God as they do his works and you will see Christ in them and they too will have been tried by fire and they will be overcoming through Christ.

I'm not saying that your heart is in the wrong place. What I'm saying is that if God is Love, and the greatest Love, then why would he send someone else to die for us to show that He loves us? If God really loved us, he would do this Himself.

But wait a minute, that's exactly what we ARE told. God did this himself. Jesus... that guy Jesus... that was HIM.

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


John 19:37 KJV
(37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

When you want to show someone you love them, you do the thing yourself. You don't hire someone else to give the flowers, you don't hire someone else to take out the trash, you don't hire someone else to listen to their problems and comfort them...

If God really loved us, he would have come and shown us Himself.

Wait a minute... HE DID.

 

[marhig]

I'm not saying that your heart is in the wrong place. What I'm saying is that if God is Love, and the greatest Love, then why would he send someone else to die for us to show that He loves us? If God really loved us, he would do this Himself.

But wait a minute, that's exactly what we ARE told. God did this himself. Jesus... that guy Jesus... that was HIM.

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


John 19:37 KJV
(37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

When you want to show someone you love them, you do the thing yourself. You don't hire someone else to give the flowers, you don't hire someone else to take out the trash, you don't hire someone else to listen to their problems and comfort them...

If God really loved us, he would have come and shown us Himself.

Wait a minute... HE DID.

He sent Jesus to die in the flesh and to live for us to bare witness to the truth, to bring God to us, to preach the gospel and reconcile us to God and then through his life save us. We are saved by his life!

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Jesus Christ in John 18

To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

-The people you are talking to on this thread are double predestinarian.
-God punishes reprobates for the sins of their reprobate ancestors. They are doubly cursed, which is why God chastised by the tribe.
It doesn't apply to the elect.

You've been on this site since 2003, and like others who have been here forever, your opposition to Calvinism is based on a fundamentally flawed perception of it from the start. I see how you all do- repeating the same old nonsense over and over and over again.

:chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Grosnick, the plural in Genesis 1:26 is not a proof that God is multiple people or have conversations with himself. There are alternative explanations, including:

1) God is speaking on behalf of his heavenly host. That is, the equivalent of the royal "We" like when the Queen says "We are not amused."
2) God is speaking with his heavenly host, perhaps even allowing them to participate in the process in some way. For example, when God let the angels submit ideas in 2 Chronicles 18:19.

The verse does seem to indicate that there were multiple people present. However, considering the great number of angels in existence that most people allow would have been created prior to Day 6, it doesn't prove that there are multiple Gods or multiple people called God.

:chuckle:

 

[popsthebuilder]

Tb



Agreed!

All can continue to act as if they ignore.

On that first point; it has been my experience that one indeed may call on GOD, in sincere hope from desperation and depravity, and that this can be effectual towards ones first faith, or rather knowledge/ acknowledgement of GOD and His benevolent, merciful, omnipotent will.

That's all. Everyone have a good day or night or whatever.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Clete]

Grosnick, the plural in Genesis 1:26 is not a proof that God is multiple people or have conversations with himself. There are alternative explanations, including:

1) God is speaking on behalf of his heavenly host. That is, the equivalent of the royal "We" like when the Queen says "We are not amused."
2) God is speaking with his heavenly host, perhaps even allowing them to participate in the process in some way. For example, when God let the angels submit ideas in 2 Chronicles 18:19.

The verse does seem to indicate that there were multiple people present. However, considering the great number of angels in existence that most people allow would have been created prior to Day 6, it doesn't prove that there are multiple Gods or multiple people called God.

The problem with this idea is that Genesis refers to God as a plurality before the 26th verse of chapter 1. In fact, God inspired Moses to refer to Him as a plurality in the very first verse of the bible.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

The word there for God is 'elohiym, which is the plural form of that word. And, while I'm certainly no Hebrew scholar, I have been told that the verb is singular and that the verse could be rightly translated, "In the beginning Gods, He created the heavens and the earth.". Pretty funky grammatical error for Moses to have made in the first sentence of the bible.

In any case, verse 1 certainly is prior to any "heaven hosts" that you've postulated. Further, the heavenly hosts are not referred to in such a manner anywhere else in scripture and so your idea is a grasp of straw at best.

Why not just accept what it says?

Resting in Him,
Clete