I ONLY have serious discussions with those I know may benefit from it. I abhor wise guys, curmudgeons, trolls, insincere and disingenuous posters, and argumentative and hateful types. Those posters earn my "Rapier Wit and sarcasm." So, if I don't act interested in your posts that means, you fit into one or more of those categories.
Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Rosenritter
New member
If you won't tell us what you think "created man in his own image" means, then please refrain from disputing its meaning elsewhere. Before it seemed that you were suggesting that mankind was created in the image of God but that angels were not. I'll assume that if you don't want to talk about it then you're dropping the argument.
People don't suddenly appear out of nowhere. People don't have the ability to blind an entire crowd of Townsfolk. Such was the case when two "Angels" came to Lot's home.
You're a "Newbie" on TOL. Yo cannot bark orders at anyone. If you have a problem with me, feel free to report me to the "Woodshed?"
Posters are not obligated to answer EVERY question directed at them.
Rosenritter
New member
So by "people" you mean "humans" or at least "without spiritual powers." OK, by that measure angels aren't people. So if we allow your statement that "angels aren't people" how does this mean that man is made after God's image but angels are not?
Rosenritter
New member
If you're going to argue that man is made in God's image but angels are not, you are obliged by the terms of intellectual honesty to either explain what you think is meant by "made in God's image" or to drop the argument. I won't hassle you over either option you pick, but should you choose to not define your term and continue to argue it regardless, it would look rather stupid.
Rosenritter
New member
marhig
Well-known member
I didn't say anyone else was in the express image of God, if you read my post again I said the angels are in the image of God and Jesus is in the express image.
Jesus did what Adam failed to do, he never sinned, he brought us the truth, he showed us the true God through him, he showed us Gods love, God's compassion, Gods forgiveness and his judgement, he spoke only the word of God, he brought God to us and showed us the true way back to him. His is the only life that's brought us the truth. He is the only one ever to come fully in the express image of God. Angels have different strengths in heaven, Jesus was exhalted by God above all of them because he humbled himself and because of his total obedience unto death. He is now over everything, above everyone and he has the full strength of God, God had given him the power over all flesh because of his obedience, and now he gives him power over end everything and everyone else, and he is the Christ, the holy son of the living God.
Jesus also says this
Matthew 23
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
The more humble we become, and obey God and do his will, the higher God will exhalt us. If we exhalt ourselves and think too highly of ourselves we will be abased. This is what Satan did and he was cast down.
As Jesus said, the first will be last, and the last will be first.
So then if we do the will of God, speak the word of God, bring the love of God, do things that we would never do in the flesh and go places we would never go because we are moved by the spirit, then for that time we are in the image of God.
How can we have the holy spirit of God in our hearts, yet have none of God's attributes?
The fruits of the spirit, are the attributes of God.
Galatians 5
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
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marhig
Well-known member
Ah right, I don't see it like that, I believe that all the angels are called angels of God and that they are ministering spirits, I believe they all speak Gods word and they all minister the word of God to us as it is given to them by God to speak.
Hebrews 1
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
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Rosenritter
New member
No, just because it is called an angel doesn't mean it is a created being. Sometimes the Angel is God himself. At least that's what the Old Testament tells us. Don't take Hebrews out of context. Here, look at these passages here. It refers to the same being as 1) a man, 2) God, and 3) an angel.
Genesis 32:24-30 KJV
(24) And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
(25) And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
(26) And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
(27) And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
(28) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
(29) And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
(30) And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Genesis 35:1 KJV
(1) And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.
Hosea 12:2-4 KJV
(2) The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
(3) He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
(4) Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Not part of the set above, but a second different example of God being called Angel, when Jacob speaks in the same breath.
Genesis 48:15-16 KJV
(15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
(16) The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Let's allow the Bible to interpret its own terms. When the Angel speaks, all we know is that it's working on behalf of God. It might be a ministering spirit, a created angelic being, or it might be God himself, the Father of Spirits.
A stand-alone smiley face hardly qualifies as "rapier wit and sarcasm."
You've misread it. Frankly, I'm not interested in your opinion. Please place old GM on ignore and bother me no more.
I'm not arguing anything with you. I'd prefer you leave me alone or place me on ignore. No offense, I just don't, particularly like your attitude. Understand? Please don't send me any more PMs. I'm done with you. If you continue to bother old GM or send further PMs, I'll be forced to report you.
marhig
Well-known member
Rosenritter, I don't see those verses as you do, and it says in the Bible that no man has seen God at any time.
Angels are ministering spirits and God speaks through them and they serve him.
As the Bible says in its own terms.
John 1
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hebrews 13
Let brotherly love continue. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
The way we see God is through Christ by the spirit. Firstly in a man of God, and then when we receive the spirit and die the death we hear God ourselves. This is the only way we see God, if we die, and then he dwells in us. We cannot live and see God. Jesus said, blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Those pure in heart have Christ within and they will be dying the death and their hearts will be being cleansed daily.
Hebrews 1
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Here in Hebrews 1:7 it said that God makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire, its through these true ministers that we hear God. Through those who have the holy spirit in the heart. Who put God first and themselves last.
And in v13-14, we can see that the angels are ministering spirits sent to minister for those who shall be the heirs of salvation.
Can you see in v14 that it says that the angels shall minister for them? This is when the spirit of God comes upon us with power and gives us a mouth to speak, it's not us speaking but the spirit of God within. He feeds and gives us the words to say, God said to Moses, "who gave you your mouth". If we have faith then God gives us a mouth to speak the word of God and a tongue as a flame of fire being able to overcome and consume the enemy within. But it's all done through Christ by the spirit.
God is love, and you know Gods true people because you will see the love of God in their lives and the heart of Christ in them.
Those people would be wrong. The bible explicitly states otherwise...
Exodus 20:11a For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
I agree but it is the plural form of 'el'. El = God & Elohim = Gods when translated literally. I think you and I are in agreement that Moses' use was a figure of speech of one kind or another.
This is called eisegesis and it is precisely what you are NOT supposed to do when studying the bible. The only evidence that you have to support such a claim is your doctrine. There is nothing at all in the text, either in Genesis 1 or elsewhere in the bible that such an interpretation is valid or even subtly implied for that matter. You just don't get to make up your doctrine apriori and then force the text of the bible to conform to it. That's backward and I think you know it.
I never suggested that it wasn't translated correctly! You just made an argument for my position, not your own!
There is one God and only one God and yet Moses (actually, God The Holy Spirit through Moses) wrote the very first sentence of the bible in such a way as to indicate that there is a plurality within the Godhead or else there was a very obvious gramatical error made before the bible was half a dozen words long.
You believe what it says but only to a point. The fact that Moses uses the plural 'elohiym' and then put the words "Let us make man in our image" into God's mouth makes it clear that the intention was to show that there is something plural about the nature of the one God.
When you takes this along with the other biblical evidence the point cannot be denied unless you have some motive other than a biblical one for denying it.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Rosenritter
New member
In spite of all you said there, God himself said to Jacob that he appeared to him at Massah. Then there is this (see below):
Exodus 33:11 KJV
(11) And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Numbers 12:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
(7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Surely you're not limiting God to be unable to make personal appearances when he so desires?
Rosenritter
New member
I've only put one person on ignore, and that because he was an idiot for which he would so predictably spam the same words that I could program a bot to respond for him, if I needed to. I'm afraid you don't qualify for my "ignore" criteria. Sorry if I misunderstood you.
Rosenritter
New member
Grosnick, you're the one who messaged me.
Rosenritter
New member
I'd say that your position is employing the eisigesis. We're told quite plainly that there is One God. Every place that we need clarification we are told that God, himself, is One God and One God only. That would have been a perfect place to have suggested that God was a "pluralistic being" as you are supposing, or rather as you are trying to force into the text.
Where the text might be vague, we should allow the text to speak for itself when it chooses to clarify. And it chooses to clarify on the side of singular. When there might be confusion that might spell plural, it chooses to clarify on the side of singular. For example,
1 John 5:7-8 KJV
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
We never have a passage in the Bible that tells us, "Your One God is Three" or anything of that sort. That's missing. Now I already know that some people don't like that passage there. Claim it doesn't belong, this and that and so forth. They would be wrong. The passage is legitimate, and its presence is required by the surrounding Greek grammar. So let's not argue on that. But if you know of someplace that says "This One is Three" I'd really like to see that.
marhig
Well-known member
And what is it about Moses and Joshua that is different? They completely laid down their lives for God. They were dead to the flesh. They died daily as Paul did and lived to please God. And once we are dead, we see and hear God. We cannot see God and live. Once We see the living God we must die the death (death to self) and be brought to life by the spirit, brought from death to life. Alive in God. Then we see and hear God in others and we hear his word within and he teaches us daily by the spirit, he speaks to us, guides us and puts us right and it's all done through Christ.
My uncle was an atheist, and one day he heard a man preach the word of God. He stopped and listened and he says he felt as if a sword went right through his heart.
That night he prayed, he said, I don't know who you are, or what you are, but if you are then I want to know, and I don't care what it costs me. He said he didn't realise that it would cost him his life, but he was so glad it did. He said from then on his whole life changed, God completely turned his life around. He gave up his life in the flesh. His high up job went and he went on the streets to preach and became a lay preacher, he eventually got a job as rat catcher so that he could talk to ordinary people about God and evenings and weekends he preached. His heart belonged to God and he gave his life to him.
I've never met a man in my life with a heart like him, he truly followed Jesus, he didn't just talk it. He was humble, kind and gentle yet strong and he didn't care for the things of the flesh. And his mouth was always filled with fresh bread. He was very strong in God and you could see when he talked that he was being fed straight into his heart, and what he received, he shared and he broke the bread with all that he met each day. He preached like those of God in the Bible.
I have no excuse, I had someone who truly followed Jesus who lived it out in front of me and taught me well. I saw and heard Christ in a man and believed. Now I have faith and I follow Jesus also and I love God with all my heart. I'm truly blessed to know the living God and his holy son Jesus Christ.
If we truly follow Christ, then we will be dying daily and we will be partaking in Christs sufferings, laying down our lives, and we will be living by the will of God and not by the will of our flesh, dead to self but our eyes and ears will be open in God and he will dwell in our hearts through the spirit of life and truth. And Christ with be manifest in us and we will be walking the walk. And we will see God and he will reveal himself to us through his son, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But flesh and blood that is dead to the world can!