Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

popsthebuilder

New member
Pops, I doubt you have the ability to keep up with the rest of us. Why don't you sit this one out and wait for a more simple topic? Such as gardening or Badminton Tournaments.
More grand assumptions and attitude.

I would expect nothing less from the likes of you. Instead of assuming I'm stupid why don't you test your claim?

Instead of spreading lies why don't you base your opinion off of experience.

You've done nothing but act like I'm some ignoramus.

I didn't know one needed to be a scholar to discuss their faith. Was the Christ a scholar? What about John the Baptist, the apostles?

Contrary to your false opinion and deceitful tongue; I'm generally relatively intelligent, though you might not guess as much based on my spelling or your own pride.



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Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
More grand assumptions and attitude.

I would expect nothing less from the likes of you. Instead of assuming I'm stupid why don't you test your claim?

Instead of spreading lies why don't you base your opinion off of experience.

You've done nothing but act like I'm some ignoramus.

I didn't know one needed to be a scholar to discuss their faith. Was the Christ a scholar? What about John the Baptist, the apostles?

Contrary to your false opinion and deceitful tongue; I'm generally relatively intelligent, though you might not guess as much based on my spelling or your own pride.



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Keep telling yourself that. Repetition can turn a lie into a truth sometimes. I never said you were a Dope. Point out where I stated you were anything less than "Mensa Material?"
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Keep telling yourself that. Repetition can turn a lie into a truth sometimes. I never said you were a Dope. Point out where I stated you were anything less than "Mensa Material?"
You deceitful....

You have insinuated here and elsewhere about my lacking intelligence. Play stupid in front of your audience if you want. Your reward will be with them too.



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popsthebuilder

New member
Keep telling yourself that. Repetition can turn a lie into a truth sometimes. I never said you were a Dope. Point out where I stated you were anything less than "Mensa Material?"
Last time I checked my I. Q. Was 126. That was from a test with heavy metal blaring and a real lack of concentration.

Real intelligence is useful for more than just being a smart ***.

I'm not going to stoop to your level any longer.

You have no interest in the topics at hand; evidently, as in, shown by your works; you only care to poke fun and name call.

I'm glad the topics at hand are of no concern to you and you can be so whimsical about them, but some are here to learn and fellowship on some level if you don't mind... But I'm sure you do mind.

Regardless, keep wasting your time and mine and I'll keep sincerely wishing you direction by God's will, all the best, and peace.

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popsthebuilder

New member
You better check it again. This time, do it in the sunlight and uncover your eyes.


Perchance did you drop a quarter in one of those machines that give your weight and IQ? If so, I'd demand my money back! They're NEVER accurate. They're usually off by half.
Comedy is great and all but do you take anything seriously?



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Faither

BANNED
Banned
Last time I checked my I. Q. Was 126. That was from a test with heavy metal blaring and a real lack of concentration.

Real intelligence is useful for more than just being a smart ***.

I'm not going to stoop to your level any longer.

You have no interest in the topics at hand; evidently, as in, shown by your works; you only care to poke fun and name call.

I'm glad the topics at hand are of no concern to you and you can be so whimsical about them, but some are here to learn and fellowship on some level if you don't mind... But I'm sure you do mind.

Regardless, keep wasting your time and mine and I'll keep sincerely wishing you direction by God's will, all the best, and peace.

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Hey Pops, i feel your pain.

Unless your able to get into some serious name calling and misrepresentation here, you don't stand a chance. Most of the self proclaimed scholars here offer no light and are only interested in seek and destroy missions. They use the only tools available to them which are from the darkness.

You mentioned that you desired to talk about Faith? Do what i've done, put them on ignore and have a convo with me about what Faith really is.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Hey Pops, i feel your pain.

Unless your able to get into some serious name calling and misrepresentation here, you don't stand a chance. Most of the self proclaimed scholars here offer no light and are only interested in seek and destroy missions. They use the only tools available to them which are from the darkness.

You mentioned that you desired to talk about Faith? Do what i've done, put them on ignore and have a convo with me about what Faith really is.
Thanks for your motivational words friend.

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Crucible

BANNED
Banned
Great...tell me, if you will; what is the grace gospel according to you?

The fact that they even hurl that notion around tells you all you need to know- a bunch of Bible thumpers who give birth to false prophets every time something bad happens in the world. They act like they have the decoder ring to it all, and ironically condemn others for 'trying to know as God'.

Give
me
a
break
:rolleyes:
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Hey Pops, i feel your pain.

Unless your able to get into some serious name calling and misrepresentation here, you don't stand a chance. Most of the self proclaimed scholars here offer no light and are only interested in seek and destroy missions. They use the only tools available to them which are from the darkness.

You mentioned that you desired to talk about Faith? Do what i've done, put them on ignore and have a convo with me about what Faith really is.

Good idea. You ought to place EVERYBODY on ignore and just relate to us your life's journey. That would be interesting to some posters.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
The fact that they even hurl that notion around tells you all you need to know- a bunch of Bible thumpers who give birth to false prophets every time something bad happens in the world. They act like they have the decoder ring to it all, and ironically condemn others for 'trying to know as God'.

Give
me
a
break
:rolleyes:

You're the "GURU" all TOLers have been looking for all their life's. Speak to us and we will listen.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I just can't grasp it I suppose.

I know that I am somewhat free to make my own choices, but I also know that GOD wants me to be a certain way.

Basically GOD gives us potential to go along the narrow path, and GOD knows what direction we will go, though we do not.

I just can't grasp how ordaining the elect to lead the masses toward the light of GOD by the way of the Christ is synonymous with ordaining those who are not the elect (the sheep) to hell.

It just seams like people are trying to justify bashing Calvinism because they don't like what it means for themselves perhaps. It isn't because it isn't scriptural, that's for sure.

And just to be clear; I'm not a Calvinist. I don't belong to any particular sect really.

What am I missing?

Peace

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If you're so sure that is "isn't because it isn't biblical" then why aren't you a Calvinist?

Let me tell you that Calvinism flat out is NOT biblical and if it were, not only would I refuse to be a Calvinist, I would refuse to be a Christian! It could not be any more unbiblical if it made the attempt! It is 100% rooted in Classical philosophy. If Aristotle hadn't taught that God was Immutable, you wouldn't believe it and Calvinism wouldn't exist at all. The absolute immutability of God is THE singular pillar upon which all of Calvinism's distinctive doctrines rests. Everything from Total Depravity to the Preservation of the saints and everything else you think of as Calvinism is derived logically from the idea that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. All of which has been established hundreds of times on this site alone.

This particular thread is focusing on justice, however, and so let's stick to that issue in particular. You said....

I just can't grasp how ordaining the elect to lead the masses toward the light of GOD by the way of the Christ is synonymous with ordaining those who are not the elect (the sheep) to hell.

Well, how could it not be?
First of all, Calvinism does not teach that God leads the elect anywhere. The elect, according to Calvinism, is saved by virtue of having been elected not because they were brought to a place where they could "see the light" and choose God. Nor do they believe that God elected them because He foresaw their choice. They believe that God's election was arbitrary.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)​

I want for you to be sure and read those quotes. Those are not aberrations! Those are not things that Calvin himself believed but that Reformed Theology does not teach. That IS what Calvinism teaches and no one who denies the truth of those statements can rightly call themselves a Calvinist.


In addition to that, Calvinism teaches that those who are arbitrarily passed over and thereby condemned to Hell forever are so condemned for actions that God unchangeably preordained that they would perform!

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

And again, those quotes of Calvin represent normal Reformed doctrinal teaching. That is what they believe and teach. Indeed, it was they are forced to believe and teach if they desire to have a doctrine that is rationally consistent with their foundational doctrine of Immutability. They literally choose to render the term "justice" meaningless in order to preserve their understanding of what it means to say that God does not change.

Alright, that's enough for now. I could keep going for thousands of words but I'll let you digest that for a while and we can contiue in any direction you pick to go in.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Great...tell me, if you will; what is the grace gospel according to you?

Thanks,

Peace

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God the Son BECAME a man.
God the Son lived a sinless human life.
God the Son willingly and willfully DIED the death that you justly deserve to suffer for your sin.
God the Son rose from the dead.

If you believe those four things you will be saved.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

popsthebuilder

New member
If you're so sure that is "isn't because it isn't biblical" then why aren't you a Calvinist?

Let me tell you that Calvinism flat out is NOT biblical and if it were, not only would I refuse to be a Calvinist, I would refuse to be a Christian! It could not be any more unbiblical if it made the attempt! It is 100% rooted in Classical philosophy. If Aristotle hadn't taught that God was Immutable, you wouldn't believe it and Calvinism wouldn't exist at all. The absolute immutability of God is THE singular pillar upon which all of Calvinism's distinctive doctrines rests. Everything from Total Depravity to the Preservation of the saints and everything else you think of as Calvinism is derived logically from the idea that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. All of which has been established hundreds of times on this site alone.

This particular thread is focusing on justice, however, and so let's stick to that issue in particular. You said....



Well, how could it not be?
First of all, Calvinism does not teach that God leads the elect anywhere. The elect, according to Calvinism, is saved by virtue of having been elected not because they were brought to a place where they could "see the light" and choose God. Nor do they believe that God elected them because He foresaw their choice. They believe that God's election was arbitrary.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)​

I want for you to be sure and read those quotes. Those are not aberrations! Those are not things that Calvin himself believed but that Reformed Theology does not teach. That IS what Calvinism teaches and no one who denies the truth of those statements can rightly call themselves a Calvinist.


In addition to that, Calvinism teaches that those who are arbitrarily passed over and thereby condemned to Hell forever are so condemned for actions that God unchangeably preordained that they would perform!

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

And again, those quotes of Calvin represent normal Reformed doctrinal teaching. That is what they believe and teach. Indeed, it was they are forced to believe and teach if they desire to have a doctrine that is rationally consistent with their foundational doctrine of Immutability. They literally choose to render the term "justice" meaningless in order to preserve their understanding of what it means to say that God does not change.

Alright, that's enough for now. I could keep going for thousands of words but I'll let you digest that for a while and we can contiue in any direction you pick to go in.

Resting in Him,
Clete
I'm not a Calvinist because I'm not completely familiar with their doctrine and don't consider the doctrine of any sect to be needed in order to be pleasing to GOD.

I do not and cannot justifiably argue against the immutability of GOD. Though times and men change, the will of GOD doesn't. How could it? For that to happen then GOD would have to have made a mistake, and I'm sorry, but I can't justifiably say that either.

I admittedly don't know the finer points of Calvinism, but I do know that there is no such thing as chance and that GOD is without limit of any sort. To assume an all knowing all powerful spirit responsible for the formation of all existence as we know it can't ordain the elect is...well... Nonsense.

It says all will be reconciled to GOD so how is it that any can justifiably say that any are destined to eternal torture, which by the way isn't biblical.

Peace friend, I really appreciate your leveled approach to this topic with me. I also thank you for the resources you provided. Learning is halted when mockery and haughtiness are involved. With that in mind... You learned me somethin.

😊

Peace friend

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