Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[popsthebuilder]

Whats your understanding of "Nt Faith and faithing" ?

Faith is the belief in GOD and the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of the Christ. All good works are a product of faith.

To believe as we are told to in scripture is to have utter faith. In other words to take a thing as wholly and utterly true. And to believe a thing is true is to act accordingly. As in I believe I will die if I don't breath, so I breath. To have faith in GOD is to actually strive to follow the commands of GOD.

Having faith isn't simply proclaiming such but living in such if that makes sense.

What about you. What is your take on faith?

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

God the Son BECAME a man.
God the Son lived a sinless human life.
God the Son willingly and willfully DIED the death that you justly deserve to suffer for your sin.
God the Son rose from the dead.

If you believe those four things you will be saved.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

Resting in Him,
Clete

I appreciate your perspective, I really do, but I was asking someone else specifically.

On a side note; I couldn't help but notice that you inserted the trinitarian view into those four things attempting to make trinitarianism needed for salvation. I'm not refuting it but is it necessary for salvation.

Can you reference scripture stating that one must ascribe the title of GOD the Son to Jesus of Nazareth the Crist in order to be saved?

Thank you sincerely, with humility.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Faither]

Faith is the belief in GOD and the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of the Christ. All good works are a product of faith.

To believe as we are told to in scripture is to have utter faith. In other words to take a thing as wholly and utterly true. And to believe a thing is true is to act accordingly. As in I believe I will die if I don't breath, so I breath. To have faith in GOD is to actually strive to follow the commands of GOD.

Having faith isn't simply proclaiming such but living in such if that makes sense.

What about you. What is your take on faith?

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Thanks for your reply Pops.

My take on Faith has been at the least a great passion of mine for more than 30 years.

The statements i'll be sharing with you will be kind of be a shock to you, i'm assuming that anyway.

What would you say if i told you that Nt Faith and faithing has been completely lost to time and history? That the understanding of Faith and faithing in the church world today is completely backwards?

I'll start by stating the first truth.

In our English translated scriptures, we have the word "Faith", it's a noun, Pistis in the Greek texts.

Also in the Greek texts, there is a verb for faith. That verb, an action word is pisteuo.

Our English language doesn't have a word for the verb form of Faith like the Greek does.

So the translators, being stuck to translate possibly the most important word in the scriptures, didn't have a word to choose from. Simply because the English has no word for the verb form of Faith.

Seeing they had to come up with something to translate "pisteuo" being that it's used 248 times in the NT alone, they chose the words believe, believer, and believing.

The words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslations of the Greek word "pisteuo". The Greek language doesn't even have a word for believe, believer, and believing. Now if you check me on that, be aware pisteuo was mistranslated into English, and is also mistranslated back out of the English. There is no Greek word for the words believe , believer, and believing. I think the reason for that is the Greek language being the most precise on earth simply doesn't acknowledge the state of being where one is only believing. We are either faithing forwards to God, pisteuo, or we are faithing away from God , apisteuo. No neutral ore middle ground.

Before i get into what "pisteuo" means, how do you feel about what i've said so far?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Thanks for your reply Pops.

My take on Faith has been at the least a great passion of mine for more than 30 years.

The statements i'll be sharing with you will be kind of be a shock to you, i'm assuming that anyway.

What would you say if i told you that Nt Faith and faithing has been completely lost to time and history? That the understanding of Faith and faithing in the church world today is completely backwards?

I'll start by stating the first truth.

In our English translated scriptures, we have the word "Faith", it's a noun, Pistis in the Greek texts.

Also in the Greek texts, there is a verb for faith. That verb, an action word is pisteuo.

Our English language doesn't have a word for the verb form of Faith like the Greek does.

So the translators, being stuck to translate possibly the most important word in the scriptures, didn't have a word to choose from. Simply because the English has no word for the verb form of Faith.

Seeing they had to come up with something to translate "pisteuo" being that it's used 248 times in the NT alone, they chose the words believe, believer, and believing.

The words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslations of the Greek word "pisteuo". The Greek language doesn't even have a word for believe, believer, and believing. Now if you check me on that, be aware pisteuo was mistranslated into English, and is also mistranslated back out of the English. There is no Greek word for the words believe , believer, and believing. I think the reason for that is the Greek language being the most precise on earth simply doesn't acknowledge the state of being where one is only believing. We are either faithing forwards to God, pisteuo, or we are faithing away from God , apisteuo. No neutral ore middle ground.

Before i get into what "pisteuo" means, how do you feel about what i've said so far?

Actually sounds somewhat in line with what I have perceived, and where I think you are going with this may very well be a breath of fresh air.

Feel free to continue friend.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Tambora]

Your reward will be with them too.

What reward would that be?

 

[popsthebuilder]

What reward would that be?

Don't know. Wait and see. I wait with you.

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Tambora]

Also in the Greek texts, there is a verb for faith. That verb, an action word is pisteuo.

There are many words that are classified as nouns, but are action words.
"Love" being one.

The Greek language doesn't even have a word for believe, believer, and believing.

the Greek language being the most precise on earth

So, your claim is that most precise language on earth didn't include a word for "believe"????

 

[Crucible]

Taking all that invaluable Calvinist literature and making a remarkably stupid conclusion to it all-
it really sums up the posters on here, who call the Reformed tradition a 'cult'..
The Reformation is the only reason you even have religious liberty you pretentious idiot.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Who did he murder?

 

[Crucible]

Who did he murder?

John Calvin performed a bit of an inquisition of his own in Geneva to deter uprisings. There's no point in singling that out because the whole West was virtually in a state of civil unrest at the time, especially with King Henry VIII- who was offing Catholics and Protestants alike.

 

[Clete]

Your (and Pate's) totally ignorant misrepresentations of Calvinism, sicken me.

Calvin's Calvinism sickens you?

 

[Clete]

I appreciate your perspective, I really do, but I was asking someone else specifically.

On a side note; I couldn't help but notice that you inserted the trinitarian view into those four things attempting to make trinitarianism needed for salvation. I'm not refuting it but is it necessary for salvation.

Can you reference scripture stating that one must ascribe the title of GOD the Son to Jesus of Nazareth the Crist in order to be saved?

Thank you sincerely, with humility.

Peace

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”​

Notice in the Matthew 3 passage that you have all three. The Father speaking from Heaven, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove and Jesus the Son of God.

There are a several threads on TOL where the deity of Jesus Christ has been biblically established over and over and over and in more detail than what I just presented which is enough by itself. If the bible does not teach that Jesus is God, it doesn't teach anything.

If you do not believe that Jesus is God then the rest is a waste of your time. Jesus was either God or He was a lunatic and the writers of the New Testament liars.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[popsthebuilder]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”​

Notice in the Matthew 3 passage that you have all three. The Father speaking from Heaven, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove and Jesus the Son of God.

There are a several threads on TOL where the deity of Jesus Christ has been biblically established over and over and over and in more detail than what I just presented which is enough by itself. If the bible does not teach that Jesus is God, it doesn't teach anything.

If you do not believe that Jesus is God then the rest is a waste of your time. Jesus was either God or He was a lunatic and the writers of the New Testament liars.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I didn't say that I did or didn't believe it friend and I admire and appreciate your zeal.

My question was, however, for biblical support for the doctrine that one must believe Jesus the anointed of GOD is, was, and always will be the utter fullness of GOD in order to be acceptable for salvation or return to GOD.

I do believe in some form of the trinitarian view, as it is helpful to understanding what we can of GOD. I just want to see support that it is needed for salvation.

Thanks,

Peace

I didn't mean to offend or rub you the wrong way.

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Faither]

Actually sounds somewhat in line with what I have perceived, and where I think you are going with this may very well be a breath of fresh air.

Feel free to continue friend.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Thats great Pops,

What i've shared with you so far is a first day at school understanding of the Greek word "pisteuo" used 248 times in the NT. The Bible teacher i've studied under for the last 30 years is a DR. of theology from Stanford University. He taught for 50 years before graduating. During those 50 years he amassed the largest collection of Biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican. He collected them to not only preserve the texts for the toll that has been paid for there existence, but to teach and check the translations. He was able to teach the texts in all the ancient languages.

With that said, His definition of faith or faithing was , "An action , based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.

Belief is a small part of what faith or faithing is, but to define faith as belief,or believing alone would be an error.

 

[Clete]

I'm not a Calvinist because I'm not completely familiar with their doctrine and don't consider the doctrine of any sect to be needed in order to be pleasing to GOD.

I do not and cannot justifiably argue against the immutability of GOD. Though times and men change, the will of GOD doesn't. How could it? For that to happen then GOD would have to have made a mistake, and I'm sorry, but I can't justifiably say that either.

Why would it be a mistake on God's part to change His mind?

Have you ever actually thought through the things you've been taught?

Read Jeremiah chapter 18 and tell me how God cannot change His mind.
Read Jeremiah 19:5 and tell me how God preordained everything that happens.
Read Isaiah chapter 5 and tell me how things always go the way God plans.
Read the Gospels and tell me how God cannot change in any way whatsoever.

I'm tellin' ya! The god of Calvinism is not taught in the bible. It just isn't in there. Every passage they use is an example of them reading their doctrine into the text, which is backward from the way doctrine is supposed to be done. They interpret the bible in light of Aristotelian philosophy. And I'm not making that up because it makes their doctrine sound bad. Augustine all but worshiped Aristotle and Plato and refused for a long time to become a Christian because the bible taught that God could change His mind. That was the specific reason! It wasn't until Bishop Ambrose of Milan taught him to interpret the scripture in light of Aristotle that he was willing to become a Christian. It's just as upside down and backward as it can be. You aren't supposed to bring your beliefs to the bible, you're supposed to get your beliefs from it.

I admittedly don't know the finer points of Calvinism,

These are not the finer points, these are the foundational precepts and major themes of the system. These are their core doctrines!

but I do know that there is no such thing as chance

Really? How do you know that?

Be careful! You won't be able to defend that belief without making God unjust and the author of sin. Ideas have consequences.

...and that GOD is without limit of any sort.

Really? Of any sort? How do you know this?

Can God go to a place that doesn't exist? Can God make a perfect sphere with sharp edges and tight corners? Can God lie while telling the truth? Can God do the rationally absurd or is He limited to the constraints of reality?

To assume an all knowing all powerful spirit responsible for the formation of all existence as we know it can't ordain the elect is...well... Nonsense.

No one denies that God would be capable of doing so, the debate is about whether doing so would make Him unjust.

And on what basis do you call God, "all knowing" and just what do you mean by it? Ever attempted to prove that one biblically? I bet you can't do it. I know you can't do it.

It says all will be reconciled to GOD so how is it that any can justifiably say that any are destined to eternal torture, which by the way isn't biblical.

Of course, it's biblical. Universalism is stupidity.

Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you
cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Any doctrine that can be completely exploded by quoting one single passage of scripture is just simple stupidity. Universalism does doctrine backward - reading thir apriori doctine into the text. There's not even any reason to be a Christian if you believe in Universalism, which might be the most intuitively self-degeating doctrine that is possible to formulate aside from the doctrine that says it's wrong to judge.

Peace friend, I really appreciate your leveled approach to this topic with me. I also thank you for the resources you provided. Learning is halted when mockery and haughtiness are involved. With that in mind... You learned me somethin.

Very cool!

Let's keep it going! I love to talk about this stuff!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[popsthebuilder]

Thats great Pops,

What i've shared with you so far is a first day at school understanding of the Greek word "pisteuo" used 248 times in the NT. The Bible teacher i've studied under for the last 30 years is a DR. of theology from Stanford University. He taught for 50 years before graduating. During those 50 years he amassed the largest collection of Biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican. He collected them to not only preserve the texts for the toll that has been paid for there existence, but to teach and check the translations. He was able to teach the texts in all the ancient languages.

With that said, His definition of faith or faithing was , "An action , based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.

Belief is a small part of what faith or faithing is, but to define faith as belief,or believing alone would be an error.

So what English word means to believe and do or act accordingly as if a surety?



Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Crucible]

Why would it be a mistake on God's part to change His mind?

It's impossible for God to change His mind and I'm going to show you quite plainly why.

God's foreknowledge doesn't merit Him the ability to change His mind because if He knew beforehand He would change it, He would simply go with that will from the beginning.

It's incontrovertible.

Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

That is the ESV version. In the KJV, it is 'repent' rather than 'change His mind', which is literally the same meaning- God does not make mistakes to where He must retract a choice.

 

[Faither]

So what English word means to believe and do or act accordingly as if a surety?



Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

The words the English language is missing for the verb form of Faith or what was needed for the tranalators to translate "pisteuo" are , faithe, faither, and faithing.

I've shared some good back ground with you, now lets get down to the nuts and bolts of what true faithand faithing is.

I read a post a couple of days ago here, and it stated that "faith is not in mans nature." My blood boiled, because thats basically all we are.

With the definition of Faithing (pisteuo) being, "An action , based upon a belief, sustained by confidence." How many times in a day do we do that? We probably perform a 100 acts of faith before we get in our car to drive to work. Everything we do is an act of faithing or pisteuo. When we get out of bed in the morning, do we check to make sure our legs work, or that the floor will hold us up when we stand on it? Do we check our blood pressure to make sure it won't give out before we make it the the bathroom? These are all acts of faith, the verb.

Now, theres a difference between the thousands of acts of faithing we perform all day long and what "NT Faithing is".

NT faithing or "pisteuo" in the Greek is a specific act. This act had to be available before Gods Word right, Gods Word wasn't being written for public consumption until the 1500's. And for us who do have Gods Word, Faithing has to be something that has nothing to do with Gods Word. That may hit you wrong but hear me out.

Rom. 8:9 defines a foundational state of being that we are all bound to, and reads. "And if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, He is none of his."

Now, we all start out in the beginning in this state. We do not have the Spirit of Christ, so Christ is not ours. I will take it one step further and say, if Christs Spirit is not ours, and if Christ is not ours, then His Word can't be ours either. So "believing in Gods Word to receive His Spirit is impossible because Gods Word is not ours in the binning of our walk yet. That is why i said Nt faithing has to be something that God accepts, that is not tied to His Word.

The answer, is in the Greek dictionary. Pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him, and a conduct inspired by such surrender."

Nt faith and faithiong is a continual surrendering of our lives to Him, and a life inspired by that surrender. This means, that when we make our first surrender to Him, He watches us to see if we back up that surrender with evidence that we really mean what we have done. Every little decision we make during every day tells God that we really have surrendered our life to Him. And that daily continual surrender is the life of faith that has been lost to time. The trust that todays church world stands on, "trusting that God will do what He said He would do in His Word", is not saving faith and will result in nothing. Nt faithing is in a real person.

Christ is formed in our hearts by Faith, by a continual surrendering of our lives to Him, and a conduct inspired by that surrender. When Christ comes into our hearts, not by some kind of perfect daily surrendering, but by a genuine continual surrendering of our life and will to Him , His Spirit will be sealed in us. If we have the Spirit of Christ, we have the "mind of Christ", nobody has a clue what that means or feels like. Yet everyone has the spirit of christ because of a moment of "belief".

Thats just not true.

 

[Clete]

It's impossible for God to change His mind and I'm going to show you quite plainly why.

God's foreknowledge doesn't merit Him the ability to change His mind because if He knew beforehand He would change it, He would simply go with that will from the beginning.

It's incontrovertible.

Incontrovertibly question begging nonsense!

You don't get to presuppose the truth of your doctrine so as to use it to argue the truth of your doctrine.

God doesn't know everything in advance.

Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

That is the ESV version. In the KJV, it is 'repent' rather than 'change His mind', which is literally the same meaning- God does not make mistakes to where He must retract a choice.

Outstanding examples of what I was referring to when I said that Calvinists read their doctrine into the text.
The quotation here ignores what is being talked about as well as ignore the many times throughout the bible where it explicitly says that God does/has/did change His mind and might do so again!

Here's just a sample...

Jeremiah 18:18 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Isaiah 5:3
“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I didn't say that I did or didn't believe it friend and I admire and appreciate your zeal.

My question was, however, for biblical support for the doctrine that one must believe Jesus the anointed of GOD is, was, and always will be the utter fullness of GOD in order to be acceptable for salvation or return to GOD.

I do believe in some form of the trinitarian view, as it is helpful to understanding what we can of GOD. I just want to see support that it is needed for salvation.

Thanks,

Peace

I didn't mean to offend or rub you the wrong way.

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

I'm not offended in the slightest, just emphatic.

If Jesus wasn't God the plan of salvation doesn't work in the first place. Secondly the same authors that teach that Jesus died for our sin are the same authors that teach that Jesus was the Creator of the Universe. You can't reject one without undermining the other.

Resting in Him,
Clete