Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

Rosenritter

New member
I agree, but although Jesus comes to save sinners if they don't believe the gospel then how can he save them?

Acts 16

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

He may eventually resort to some pretty drastic means to get their attention. For example, Paul was struck blind, and personally told that he was acting against the LORD and that his name was Jesus. There's still some pretty drastic events written which have not yet come to pass, which have the undeniable potential to get the attention of anyone.

But even that doesn't guarantee that a person will be willing to accept Jesus for who he is, a.k.a. "belief."
 

God's Truth

New member
Perhaps it would help if you described your challenge more precisely. Your responses have been getting really short and clipped. What I did was provide scripture that proves that God wants to save unbelievers.

Your scripture does not prove God saves unbelievers.

Again, Calvinism says God saves unbelievers and AFTER, or WHEN they are saved in their state of unbelief, they then can believe and obey God.

That is a false doctrine.

The fact that God does not save unbelievers destroys Calvinism.
 

God's Truth

New member
He may eventually resort to some pretty drastic means to get their attention. For example, Paul was struck blind, and personally told that he was acting against the LORD and that his name was Jesus. There's still some pretty drastic events written which have not yet come to pass, which have the undeniable potential to get the attention of anyone.

But even that doesn't guarantee that a person will be willing to accept Jesus for who he is, a.k.a. "belief."

...BUT, GOD, does, not, save, unbelievers.
 

Rosenritter

New member
...BUT, GOD, does, not, save, unbelievers.

Who did Jesus come to save then, God's truth? Believers, or unbelievers? What did he say to this effect?

* If you say believers, then show the scripture.
* If you say unbelievers, and if you still insist that God does not save unbelievers, then you are saying Jesus failed miserably in all cases.

There's a reason I'm being picky here. Your challenges are not being phrased with precision. That's going to lead to disaster when trying to talk to anyone, especially someone like AMR who will run rings around you with copious volumes of text copied-and-pasted in between his own lengthy irrelevant diatribes. Tighten down your question properly? Cut to the chase or this dog-chasing-its-tail pattern is going to continue for another two dozen pages.

Did you mean to ask, "Prove that people are saved by God regardless of whether they believe?" Maybe that question suits you better. Because we've already seen that God does save unbelievers.
 

God's Truth

New member
Who did Jesus come to save then, God's truth? Believers, or unbelievers? What did he say to this effect?

* If you say believers, then show the scripture.
* If you say unbelievers, and if you still insist that God does not save unbelievers, then you are saying Jesus failed miserably in all cases.

There's a reason I'm being picky here. Your challenges are not being phrased with precision. That's going to lead to disaster when trying to talk to anyone, especially someone like AMR who will run rings around you with copious volumes of text copied-and-pasted in between his own lengthy irrelevant diatribes. Tighten down your question properly? Cut to the chase or this dog-chasing-its-tail pattern is going to continue for another two dozen pages.

Did you mean to ask, "Prove that people are saved by God regardless of whether they believe?" Maybe that question suits you better. Because we've already seen that God does save unbelievers.

What you say is not true.

Just answer the question with scripture. Show scripture that says God saves unbelievers.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Your scripture does not prove God saves unbelievers.

Again, Calvinism says God saves unbelievers and AFTER, or WHEN they are saved in their state of unbelief, they then can believe and obey God.

That is a false doctrine.

The fact that God does not save unbelievers destroys Calvinism.

Not quite . . .

You are saying that belief and obedience saves.

Reformers ("Calvinists") say God changing the sinner's heart, saves.

The former is "works", the latter is a miracle of grace.

I, as a Reformer, believe the former causes men to boast in themselves, and the latter brings great glory to God.

(See my signature lines.)
 

God's Truth

New member
God saves unbelievers that finally believe. God doesn't save unbelievers that continue in unbelief. That's what you should know and should be saying, because Jesus Christ came and died to save sinners in unbelief

I am saying it just fine.

You just admitted God does not save unbelievers.

Now if Calvinists can admit that truth, then they would not be Calvinists.
 

God's Truth

New member
Not quite . . .

You are saying that belief and obedience saves.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Jesus' words are Spirit and life.

You will not get the Spirit and the life by belief alone.

You have to believe that we have to obey Jesus.

Reformers ("Calvinists") say God changing the sinner's heart saves.

God changes the heart of repentant believers.


The former is "works", the latter is a miracle of grace.

The works we do not have to do anymore are the purification/ceremonial works. NOWHERE anywhere are we told we no longer have to obey.

I, as a Reformer, believe the former causes men to boast in themselves, and the latter brings great glory to God.

(See my signature lines.)

It is NEVER EVER shameful to obey God.

Paul says we can boast in each other and even in ourselves.

Those who can no longer boast are the Jews who believe they can continue to make themselves clean and acceptable to God by getting circumcised, etc.
 

God's Truth

New member
Calvinists say God saves people while they do NOT believe and do NOT obey.

However, there is NO scripture anywhere that says God saves unbelievers.

We must believe before we can be saved.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Paul was changed when he was knocked off his horse; being blinded by God's great light.

Evidence?

Acts 9:6

Paul acknowledged the voice he heard as being the "Lord."

No sinner can or will call God "Lord" without having his sinful, unbelieving heart changed to so confess.

Confession of faith is the result of regeneration, such as Paul experienced in this instance. Obedience is the result of being changed and raised to new spiritual life that provokes a genuine confession of faith (belief).

Regeneration precedes faith.

God's grace is a unsought, miraculous, and free gift . . not a meritorious reward for something or anything we seek to do.
 

marhig

Well-known member
That was very heart felt and I thank you sincerely. Do you have a heart condition or diabetes? I mean not to pry I'm just having trouble seeing sweets as sin. Though I admit excess, of anything is bad. Most sin falls into addiction for me. Bondage to these wants of the flesh, even to the point that though I can observe their negative effects on the quality and longevity of my physical life, I choose to willingly ignore it. This is partially why I want to study on free will. I have witnessed me do things contrary to what I know is good and right for myself for my whole life nearly.

Please do not think that you are condemned in any way for what you spoke of. I know for certain that things are here for our consumption or rather to ease our burdens. It is moderation that is key in your case as far as I can tell. Even moderation in my own case might suffice.

Your sincere words moved me. I would hope for blessings to be bestowed upon you, yet it is obvious you are blessed with compassion and sincerity. These things are what spiritual truths are comprised of... You are very blessed indeed.

Patience and perseverance. Let your hope and faith be your strength.

Thank you again for your motivational words. I can only hope to articulate such beauty and compassion in the future, as you have displayed today.

Humbly,

May our GOD, the GOD of creation and life bring you peace and surety in all your endeavors, by His will and your faith.


Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

I don't think I have a heart condition or diabetes, but I could have and I don't know about it, but I have rheumatoid arthritis. And cutting out junk food is helping. I used to drink lots of diet pop, but I've mostly cut that out now and cut right down on sweet food and its definitely helping me. I feel much better.

The reason I see eating sweets as a sin, is because I crave for them. And I believe that anything I crave for is wrong and I am to deny it. I suppose what is a sin to me won't be a sin to someone else as it won't have a hold on them. But if I know it's a sin to me, then it's a sin and I know it's something I have to fight and pray to God to help me to overcome. Although I'm definitely not craving them like I used to do so that's good.

And yes you're right, it's having it in moderation and controlling it. I'll have to try and cut down even more, I think cutting down is one of the best ways if we can't give it up straight away. My husband had a cigarette, then missed one and waited as long as he possibly could, and just cut down taking a bit less all the time until he was down to 3. Now he even hates the smell so there's hope. I truly hope you do it, and me too with the sweets :)

Maybe we can help each other, even talking helps, I think it helps to strengthen each other when we talk about it and we know that others are going through the same. And we have the greatest help of all our God and father and our lord Jesus Christ and through faith God will give us the strength to overcome. And as James said, resist the devil and he will flee from you. I often think of this when I'm tempted. Good luck and may God be with you. :)
 

God's Truth

New member
Paul was changed when he was knocked off his horse; being blinded by God's great light.

Evidence?

If God regenerates people while they do not yet believe, then Paul would have believed BEFORE he was blinded.


Acts 9:6

Paul acknowledged the voice he heard as being the "Lord."

No sinner can or will call God "Lord" without having his sinful, unbelieving heart changed to so confess.

Paul was NOT yet saved, as proof that he was not, he was still BLIND.

Confession of faith is the result of regeneration,

Regeneration means saved by being given the Holy Spirit. Paul did NOT yet receive the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus.

such as Paul experienced in this instance. Obedience is the result of being changed and raised to new spiritual life that provokes a genuine confession of faith (belief).

Regeneration precedes faith.

God's grace is a unsought, miraculous, and free gift . . not a meritorious reward for something or anything we seek to do.

Paul's testimony proves you wrong.

Jesus SAYS I will tell you what you have to do.

Did you hear that?

Jesus says I will tell you what you have to do.

Jesus did NOT say, "Paul, you are now saved."

Acts 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."…
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Calvinists say God saves people while they do NOT believe and do NOT obey.

However, there is NO scripture anywhere that says God saves unbelievers.

We must believe before we can be saved.

My personal testimony, is that I was an adamant unbeliever, who ridiculed the concept of there being a God until I was well into my adult years. But due to randomly reading a bible one evening (to seek out the bible supposedly teaching reincarnation as was told to me by a wiccan), the Lord convicted me by His words of Ezra 9:8 that He willed I acknowledge His Being, for He had a place for me in His Holy Place.

I had never heard anything like that in my life, but I instantly believed the words, and dropped the bible to confess ... "Yes! You are there! I believe in You!" Then I spent 3 full days weeping over my sins of unbelief and disobedience, and began a hungry search for truth by reading the rest of the bible.

God changed my heart and mind in the time it takes to read one verse of Scripture.

That was over 45 years ago, and His Holy Spirit has led me into a permanent and sanctified life of willing and desiring to obey Him. It was a permanent change.

But the change came from outside my mind and will. It had nothing to do with me, but was all His desire to call me to Himself . . for the purpose of my serving as witness to His grace.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
I don't think I have a heart condition or diabetes, but I could have and I don't know about it, but I have rheumatoid arthritis. And cutting out junk food is helping. I used to drink lots of diet pop, but I've mostly cut that out now and cut right down on sweet food and its definitely helping me. I feel much better.

The reason I see eating sweets as a sin, is because I crave for them. And I believe that anything I crave for is wrong and I am to deny it. I suppose what is a sin to me won't be a sin to someone else as it won't have a hold on them. But if I know it's a sin to me, then it's a sin and I know it's something I have to fight and pray to God to help me to overcome. Although I'm definitely not craving them like I used to do so that's good.

And yes you're right, it's having it in moderation and controlling it. I'll have to try and cut down even more, I think cutting down is one of the best ways if we can't give it up straight away. My husband had a cigarette, then missed one and waited as long as he possibly could, and just cut down taking a bit less all the time until he was down to 3. Now he even hates the smell so there's hope. I truly hope you do it, and me too with the sweets :)

Maybe we can help each other, even talking helps, I think it helps to strengthen each other when we talk about it and we know that others are going through the same. And we have the greatest help of all our God and father and our lord Jesus Christ and through faith God will give us the strength to overcome. And as James said, resist the devil and he will flee from you. I often think of this when I'm tempted. Good luck and may God be with you. :)
I didn't mean to say what you perceive to be sin in your own life isn't such. I wish you the very best. I think we can help one another as Christians are instructed to.

May God guide us both along that pleasing path that is the way to Him, shown to us by the teachings example and self sacrifice of the Christ.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
 

God's Truth

New member
My personal testimony, is that I was that I, as an adamant unbeliever, ridiculed the concept of there being a God until I was well into my adult years. But due to randomly reading a bible one evening to seek out the bible supposedly teaching reincarnation as was told to me by a wiccan, the Lord convicted me by His words of Ezra 9:8 that He willed I acknowledge His reality, for He had a place for me in His Holy Place.

I had never heard anything like that in my life, but I instantly believed the words, and dropped the bible to confess ... "Yes! You are there! I believe in You!" Then I spent 3 full days weeping over my sins of unbelief and disobedience, and began a hungry search for truth by reading the rest of the bible.

God changed my heart and mind in the time it takes to read one verse of Scripture.

That was over 45 years ago, and His Holy Spirit has led me into a permanent and sanctified life of willing and desiring to obey Him. It was a permanent change.

But the change came from outside my mind and will. It had nothing to do with me, but was all His desire to call me to Himself . . for the purpose of my serving as witness to His grace.

I love hearing other people's testimonies. Thank you for that.

I do want to say though that you have NOT proven you were saved before you believed and obeyed by repenting.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I love hearing other people's testimonies. Thank you for that.

I do want to say though that you have NOT proven you were saved before you believed and obeyed by repenting.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

Belief (faith) comes from the grace of God, alone. For God alone, is faithful.

No sinner has faith within his being, with which to believe. That is the universal curse of mankind.

Faith is a divine attribute of God only, but one He has chosen to communicate to many of His creatures.

Brute beasts and spiritually dead humans do not possess this attribute. God must gift it to those He has chosen to redeem from corruption and death. Ephesians 2:1-10
 
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