Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Nang]

As I said: "The idea that any human being is born predestined to Hell, and cannot even repent and believe even if he or she truly has faith, is not only vile and repugnant, but it is absolutely ridiculous and it spits in the face of what Christianity and Christ's mission is all about."

Who disagrees? .....besides, of course, Mr. Irreligion and Grablick Magumba

Me.

No unregenerated sinner inherently possesses faith or the ability to repent from their sins. Due to the original sin of Adam, all men are enslaved to only serving sin, death, and the devil.

Until and unless the Holy Spirit raises them to new life, no sinner can believe and be saved. John 3:1-8

 

[Arthur Brain]

Heh.

All unbelievers hate God, so it matters not whether they think they hate Calvinism's view or any other view.

AMR

Well thank you for that pompous, arrogant and erroneous assumption on your part then AMR. I thought you were better than that but if you want to buddy up with the likes of a troll like SOD then you have at it.

lain:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.......As I said: "The idea that any human being is born predestined to Hell, and cannot even repent and believe even if he or she truly has faith, is not only vile and repugnant, but it is absolutely ridiculous and it spits in the face of what Christianity and Christ's mission is all about."
Who disagrees? .....

Me.

No unregenerated sinner inherently possesses faith or the ability to repent from their sins. Due to the original sin of Adam, all men are enslaved to only serving sin, death, and the devil.

Until and unless the Holy Spirit raises them to new life, no sinner can believe and be saved. John 3:1-8

So you actually think God would allow a babe who has done no wrong to go to Hell. Well, that's quite disturbing indeed.

1 Timothy 2:4 says that "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

According to you God works against God. God creates evil despite his own desire. And make no mistake - God creates each and every human being, so you are saying God creates evil, because only the evil are condemned to hell, and punishes those who do no wrong.

I submit to you that you have perverted the scriptures and painted yourself into a doctrinal corner. God is many things and has many attributes, and while Judging is a function that God performs, LOVE is the essence of who God is. I reject the evil god you have concocted, for such a god does not exist.


EDIT: And I suppose you believe the flip-side is true too? ...that the most rotten terrible person, as long as they were born predestined, will go to heaven regardless of their behavior?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

As I said: "The idea that any human being is born predestined to Hell, and cannot even repent and believe even if he or she truly has faith...

Who disagrees? .....

Augustine, for one, disagrees with you...
“...those whom in His justice He haspredestined to punishment,” and “...those whom in His mercy He has predestined to grace.” (Augustine, Enchiridion)

Dig deeper. Romanists. Most do not even know what the their claimed church fathers believed. Sigh.

AMR

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Augustine, for one, disagrees with you.......

LOL! You read Augustine about as well as you read the Bible - like crap.

You're a scriptural imbecile.

 

[annabenedetti]

So you actually think God would allow a babe who has done no wrong to go to Hell. Well, that's quite disturbing indeed.

You know, I hope, that the Catholic Church doesn't say that the unbaptized baby will go to heaven? The Church holds out the hope, but not the guarantee.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You know, I hope, that the Catholic Church doesn't say that the unbaptized baby will go to heaven? The Church holds out the hope, but not the guarantee.

Well now, you are correct. The Church makes no "Infallible" statement one way or the other. However, the sensus fidelium (sense of the faithful) is not to be taken lightly, and I believe it leans heavily toward the belief that babes go to heaven. When no final Dogma has been decided one way or the other, we look to the consensus of the clergy and the faithful, so I am pretty comfortable with my position on this.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

LOL! You read Augustine about as well as you read the Bible - like crap.

You're a scriptural imbecile.

Heh. I have read all that the man wrote. Have you? Rather than parroting Rome's own crafted histories, study to show yourself approved. Then stop back and offer up something other than vitriol to see if things might proceed. For now, you are a wee bit out of your weight class in this discussion.

AMR

 

[Arthur Brain]

None of us can truly love while living apart from the Truths of God.

True love is always founded on faith in God's Word and Promises.

We cannot love our families and friends without sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So now you're saying that my sister doesn't truly love her children because she's not a 'believer'?

Priceless...

lain:

 

[annabenedetti]

Well now, you are correct. The Church makes no "Infallible" statement one way or the other. However, the sensus fidelium (sense of the faithful) is not to be taken lightly, and I believe it leans heavily toward the belief that babes go to heaven. When no final Dogma has been decided one way or the other, we look to the consensus of the clergy and the faithful, so I am pretty comfortable with my position on this.

When you're speaking for yourself, you're free to say what you want. When you're speaking for the Church, there's only one accurate voice, and that's of the Magisterium. You won't find any magisterial teaching which assures the salvation of unbaptized babies, and many historical documents which absolutely condemn them to Hell, which is why Catholic parents were always in such a hurry to baptize their babies. It's part of the faith you profess, just like the bombing of Dresden would be condemned by Catholic social teaching (which you ignore) is part of the faith you profess. You get the whole package.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

When you're speaking for yourself, you're free to say what you want. When you're speaking for the Church, there's only one accurate voice, and that's of the Magisterium. You won't find any magisterial teaching which assures the salvation of unbaptized babies, and many historical documents which absolutely condemn them to Hell, which is why Catholic parents were always in such a hurry to baptize their babies. It's part of the faith you profess, just like the bombing of Dresden would be condemned by Catholic social teaching (which you ignore) is part of the faith you profess. You get the whole package.

I don't think I was speaking for the Church in my previous statements, I think I was pretty much speaking for myself. I CAN, however, speak for the Church to say simply that Calvinism is heresy and that their version of predestination is also heresy. But that's a different issue.

 

[Rosenritter]

I prefer not to answer inane questions.

Yes, I suppose it is inane to ask if you have ever presented a single scripture as proof. Anyone who has read you for at least thirty pages knows you prefer unsupported one-line assertions.

 

[Rosenritter]

The immortality of the soul is the notion that the soul is not of the world, but preexisted the vessel. In ancient Jewish belief, all souls were created from the beginning. When God breathed into Adam, his soul became 'living' (as opposed to dormant).

There doesn't need to be a literal declaration in Scripture, it's simply a fact of Abrahamic belief.

... and this was determined by whom and how? I don't see Abraham making any such statement. I think that I will prefer what scripture actually tells us for Divine Revelation, rather than someone's story of what rumors supposedly were once upon a time somewhere in a galaxy far far away.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis right there contradicts that supposed "Abrahamic" belief which is not Abrahamic at all. It says that man became a living soul when God combined the dust with his breath. It does not say that his soul became living.

Bible first.

 

[Rosenritter]

It would be impossible for a Catholic to become a member of "The Body of Christ." (Without the outside influence of the Grace Gospel)

Secondly, if a Catholic were to hear the Grace Gospel and place all their faith in Christ as their Savior, they would HAVE to leave the Catholic church and search for a church that taught the truths of the written word of God, (The Bible.) if they expected to grow and mature in the faith.

So their salvation depends on which church buildings they frequent?

 

[Crucible]

... and this was determined by whom and how? I don't see Abraham making any such statement. I think that I will prefer what scripture actually tells us for Divine Revelation, rather than someone's story of what rumors supposedly were once upon a time somewhere in a galaxy far far away.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis right there contradicts that supposed "Abrahamic" belief which is not Abrahamic at all. It says that man became a living soul when God combined the dust with his breath. It does not say that his soul became living.

Bible first.

A living soul. It's redundant to add 'living' in the sense you put it.
It was opposed to being dormant, outside of a vessel.

Therefore, you've made no case at all. Your argument hinges on Jewish custom being wrong, the Church being wrong, and it's all some conspiracy theory in the name of, I dunno, Zeus?

It gets old, these arguments.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

We know from other Scriptures that Hell is the eternal destination for the unsaved. Man can only kill the body, however, God is able to take the everlasting soul of a man, raise his body at the end and cast both into the Lake of Fire. There is no such thing as annihilation regarding the soul. It will live forever. throughout eternity. Besides; only the unsaved need to fear the Lake of Fire. The Saved go to be with the Lord when they die physically.

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"


2 Thessalonians 1:9 " Who shall be punished* with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

A living soul. It's redundant to add 'living' in the sense you put it.
It was opposed to being dormant, outside of a vessel.

Therefore, you've made no case at all. Your argument hinges on Jewish custom being wrong, the Church being wrong, and it's all some conspiracy theory in the name of, I dunno, Zeus?

It gets old, these arguments.

Animals have the same soul.

Nephesh.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

When you're speaking for yourself, you're free to say what you want. When you're speaking for the Church, there's only one accurate voice, and that's of the Magisterium. You won't find any magisterial teaching which assures the salvation of unbaptized babies, and many historical documents which absolutely condemn them to Hell, which is why Catholic parents were always in such a hurry to baptize their babies. It's part of the faith you profess, just like the bombing of Dresden would be condemned by Catholic social teaching (which you ignore) is part of the faith you profess. You get the whole package.

Children are part of their parents.

Unclean parents , unclean children.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

LA

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Children are part of their parents.

Unclean parents , unclean children.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

LA

And what about what you would call "born again" parents? (This should be interesting.)

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Me.

No unregenerated sinner inherently possesses faith or the ability to repent from their sins. Due to the original sin of Adam, all men are enslaved to only serving sin, death, and the devil.

Until and unless the Holy Spirit raises them to new life, no sinner can believe and be saved. John 3:1-8

That is not true.

Only when the generation before the flood became unsavable were they destroyed.

The law was given in order that men could stay within bounds of being able to believe God when He spoke to them.

Even little children, even the intellectual impaired can believe before becoming regenerate.

LA