Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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drbrumley
Well-known member
God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), God the Holy Spirit as evidenced in Genesis thru Revelation. Just read it.
It does not say "you have to believe in the trinity to be saved".
You are making up your own qualification of salvation. You are not Lord, Jesus is.
Jesus never said He was the Savior.
So, according to Meshak, anyone that said that Jesus is the Savior in the bible must be suspect, because Jesus Himself did not say it.
That's messed up!
drbrumley
Well-known member
So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship--and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
JESUS
I have been proclaiming Jesus all along.
I know Jesus very well. You guys don't honor His word much but I do.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Then spell it out for me Meshak...Who is Jesus?
I already told you but I don't mind repeating it.
Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world. You will be saved if you love Him with your action and with your word.
Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commands."
This is requirement for salvation that you guys dismissing.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Great!!!
Ok, He is the Son of God. I'm happy you know that much.
Question for you. Why did the Pharisees pick up rocks to stone him when He said Before Abraham was, I AM? Why is that?
...the Son
Do YOU have a son? what is he a rabbit? rabbits beget rabbits. Men beget men.
God begot God
Every time He is called Son of the living God it declares that He is God. Were you born into the womb of a virgin? were you CONCIEVED of the Holy Ghost.....As for me and my house I will honour the Son as I honour the Father...I honour the Father as God.
But you don't keep His commands.
If any man say he loves God but hate his brethren he is a liar, this is the spirit of Cain who was a murderer.
God PROVED that His word is true.
You testify yourself that you are not a true Christian, not saved.
You cannot serve God and Satan.....
Simply not true. The author of John did not have the text which has been quoted because the Masoretic Text was not in existence at the time of writing. In fact the Masoretic Hebrew Text was not compiled for about another 900 years after the Gospel of John was written. The author of John quotes from either the Septuagint or some other heretofore unknown manuscript or codex. In John 12:38 we see clear evidence of this fact:
John 12:38 KJV
38. That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
The word for "Lord" highlighted in the above quote, (which would have been either YHWH, or Adonay, or more likely Adon because it is Kurie in the Greek) is not present in the Masoretic Hebrew Text:
Isaiah 53:1 KJV
1. Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
However the Greek quote in John 12:38 matches the Septuagint word for word as if it was copied straight from the Septuagint:
John 12:38 W/H 1881
ἵνα ὁ λόγος Ἠσαίου τοῦ προφήτου πληρωθῇ ὃν εἶπεν Κύριε, τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; καὶ ὁ βραχίων Κυρίου τίνι ἀπεκαλύφθη;
http://biblehub.com/text/john/12-38.htm
John 12:38 T/R 1550
ἵνα ὁ λόγος Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου πληρωθῇ ὃν εἶπεν Κύριε τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν καὶ ὁ βραχίων κυρίου τίνι ἀπεκαλύφθη
http://biblehub.com/text/john/12-38.htm
Esaias 53:1 LXX-Septuagint
Κύριε, τίς ἐπίστευσε τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; καὶ ὁ βραχίων Κυρίου τίνι ἀπεκαλύφθη;
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=43&page=53
Esaias 53:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
1 O Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=43&page=53
And again the quote in John 12:38 is word for word from the Septuagint:
JN 12:38
Κύριε, τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; καὶ ὁ βραχίων Κυρίου τίνι ἀπεκαλύφθη;
Esaias 53:1 LXX-Septuagint
Κύριε, τίς ἐπίστευσε τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; καὶ ὁ βραχίων Κυρίου τίνι ἀπεκαλύφθη;
Now perhaps you both might go read Exodus 3:14 from the Septuagint and you will find that it does not say "Ego eimi ["I AM"] has sent me to you" but rather "HO ON ["HE WHO IS"] has sent me to you". This is the foundational portion of a title of the Father, (YHWH) in Greek which is "ho-on-kai-ho-en-kai-ho-erchomenos" and is again referenced twice in the opening statements of Revelation, (Rev 1:4 and Rev 1:8). In other words the KJV and all translations which followed suite, (and use the Masoretic Text) are nothing more than trinitarian interpretations when it comes to this passage because the LXX-Septuagint rendering gives the meaning of 'EHYEH, (Hebrew transliteration) not as "Ego eimi" (Greek "I am") but rather as "HO ON" in the Greek, (which could also mean "THE BEING" as Brenton renders it).
This is much more critical than any here may wish to acknowledge but the reason it is so critical is because it is extremely compelling evidence that this is what the author of the Gospel of John would have believed because this is what he had before him. And again the Masoretic Text was not even in existence until about 900 years later circa 1000AD. Hope this helps, (BOOM!!!!!!!).
:sheep:
Better yet here is Exodus 3:14 from the Septuagint with a link:
Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint
14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. καὶ εἶπεν· οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ᾿Ισραήλ· ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=3
Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=3
"ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν" = "I am THE BEING"
"ὁ ὤν" = "HO ON" = "THE BEING" = "HE WHO IS"
:sheep:
Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint
14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. καὶ εἶπεν· οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ᾿Ισραήλ· ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=3
Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=3
"ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν" = "I am THE BEING"
"ὁ ὤν" = "HO ON" = "THE BEING" = "HE WHO IS"
:sheep:
Because they don't know Jesus. Like you trin people, they assumed what Jesus said.
Jesus never said He is God.
genuineoriginal
New member
You keep skipping parts of the chapter.
Hebrews 1:5-6 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. |
Hebrews 1:9 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. |
iamaberean
New member
The Jews said he claimed to be God.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Don't back off meshak, you had it right, Jesus is God!
CherubRam
New member
Jesus is not the name of Christ, because it is a recent invention. Yahshua is his name.
CherubRam
New member
It is wise to look both ways before crossing the street. The Gnostics and Pagans were Trinitarians. When the disciples passed away, the Gnostics and Pagans stepped it to take control of Christianity. The Judaizing Christians had the original letters, they were killed, and the letters burned; and the Catholics replaced them with their own versions. P.S. The Judaizing Christians believed that joining Paganism to God is a sin.
CherubRam
New member
Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures
After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world."
According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.
John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.
Hebrews 2:12
He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”
Where do you see the name Yahwah in the New Testament?