Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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God's Truth
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You are missing the point about what you said before. You were saying the disciples could not understand anything until they had the Holy Spirit living in their heart. I proved that the Holy Spirit was with them the whole time and then lived in them
No one gets a new heart unless they repent of their sins.
Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
I hope you agree with that.
Of course one is born again when they receive the Holy Spirit, after they repent.
You have that wrong. That is a teaching from false teachers. People obeyed God before the Holy Spirit was given. Get to the truth and repent of things that are not true.
We can obey some things to be saved, the things we are told to obey to be saved, we have to obey to be saved. What don’t people get about faith alone being dead? Magnify his word in your heart and believe the truth.
Paul said, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. What this really means is that salvation must come to the believer totally and completely outside of himself. It has in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus as God's new Adam has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil. In doing this he has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
beloved57
Well-known member
Christ has fulfilled all necessary obedience to God for the Elect. By His obedience alone the Elect have been made righteous.There obedience isn't even considered in making them righteous!
beloved57
Well-known member
You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!
Only sinners like your self that have not received God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.
beloved57
Well-known member
Shasta
Well-known member
I did not intend to say they could not understand ANYthing. When Peter said, "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God" the Father had revealed that to him though the Holy Spirit The Spirit was with them but His relationship with them would become much closer after the Resurrection. This is why Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit would come He would guide them into all truth.
I do agree. The Holy Spirit had been at work throughout history to bring people out of wickedness through to repentance and restore them to fellowship with God. Now He has made a way to carry out his will more effectively to as many as will believe.
The gift of the Holy Spirit to people was, nevertheless, listed as a benefit of the New Covenant God would make with Israel:
33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people (Jeremiah 31:33)
…26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
This has to do both with revealing the truth to us and enabling us to walk in it (John 16:13, 1 John 2:27,Jeremiah 31:33) This is a considerable improvement to what men had under the Old Covenant and it came from a closer relationship to God through the Spirit.
The Jews recognized that receiving the Holy Spirit was a part of the New Covenant God had promised to make with them which is why they were amazed when it happened (Acts 10:45). Peters subsequent explanation to other Jews is also enlightening.
17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted the repentance that leads to life.” (Acts 11:17-18)
It is all here. Repentance that leads to life, faith in Jesus and being born of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was in the world long before He was given at Pentecost, since the beginning. The Spirit has always been here influencing the hearts, minds and consciences of men. My main point was to point out the advantages Jesus (and the prophets) said would come when the Spirit moved within.
Yes we can obey some things to be saved. I do not believe in total inability
Are you talking to "people" or to me?
Why is it that people on this site demand absolute consensus of everyone else, to the point that if you do not carefully word your views you are accused you of spreading false doctrines?
Shasta
Well-known member
false doctrine.
Romans 2:6-8
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
7 To those who by persistence in doing good
seek glory, honor and immortality,
he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
The verse says eternal life will be rewarded to people who persist in doing good NOT to those who were "sovereignly elected" to receive eternal life. Eternal life is a reward for what they have DONE in their lives, that is, their ACTIONS and CHOICES. Those who do NOT OBEY will be recipients of divine wrath.
beloved57
Well-known member
Lon
Well-known member
:think:
I kept reading....
Rom 2:21
you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal?
Rom 2:22
You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
Rom 2:23
You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. :think:
Rom 3:3
What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?
Rom 3:4
By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged."
:think:
Rom 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. :think:
Romans 3:21-26
For your further contemplation... -Lon
Shasta
Well-known member
Scriptures you don't like are "empty comments"
Romans 2:6-8
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
What you have "done" is the SAME THING as your "works" At least, that is what your buddy Nang told me. Do you disagree with her?
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality,
We have to keep "doing good" and doing good means obeying Christ?
he will give eternal life.
This is not talking about getting rewards (like ruling over one versus ten cities) Jesus is talking about receiving eternal life
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger
Disobeying brings judgment. Obeying brings reward.
I am making this as simple as I can. What do you not understand?
Shasta
Well-known member
Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
No one is saved by performing works of the (Mosaic) Law (which is what this scripture is about). Neither is anyone saved by their own personal goodness because none of us measures up to the standard of God's holiness. We all have to be forgiven and cleansed to be in right standing with God but obedience to the Spirit is not a "work of the Law." The yoke of Christ should not be compared to obeying the Mosaic legal code which Peter said was a "yoke neither we nor our fathers were able to bear (Acts 15:10). Christ's yoke is easy and His burden light (Matthew 11:30). A "yoke" nevertheless signifies service and obedience to the one directing the "yoke."
Obedience to the Spirit comes out of our love for Christ. True faith is inseparable from love and obedience which is why true faith is active and produces works. It is also why God did not despise the kind of works that were mentioned in the scripture I posted on the subject.
23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.…(John 14:23-24)
I hear people talking antinominanism doctrine all the time and that teaching is false. People who do not "keep" Christ's words (i.e., obey them) do not love Him (John 14:15, 21, 24). All of us must continue to walk with Jesus in a relationship of (dependent) faith, love and obedience if we are to remain in His love.
If you keep My commandments, you will remain (abide, continue, stay)in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love (John 15:10).
As we surrender ourselves to Him we remain in fellowship with Him. It is the very same way Jesus remained in the Father's love. Why is this so complicated?
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beloved57
Well-known member
Nanja
Well-known member
:up:
Shasta
Well-known member
By ignoring scriptures that contradict your views you show your contempt for them.
God's Truth
New member
Paul did not preach falseness.
The Bible says plainly that there were righteous people.
You say Paul went against God and says there were no righteous people. You say that because like Peter and James say, certain people misunderstand because they are unstable, ignorant, or fools.
Lon
Well-known member
What are you asking? 1 Corinthians 4:7? I think you mean 'part.' We believe, or at least I believe, I called on the Name of the Lord.
Calvinism is mostly a negation of 'me' concerning the work of God, and an emphasis on the Lord Jesus Christ as saving. Because we view our Salvation as monergists, we believe we have nothing and can do nothing without Christ. Colossians 1:17 and John 15:5 coupled with 1 Corinthians 4:7 means any response is also enable and prompted by Him. I know there is a conundrum, and I at one time mistakenly believe I had to do my part either and both to become saved and then to keep salvation. Now when I'm older, I'm not even sure much of it is my part. I can't take any credit for my salvation lest Christ's work become insufficient and I try to feebly add to it. We are saved by grace, through faith, and this not of yourselves. Let me ask, does Ephesians 2:8-10 mean the day we became saved only (and if so, how come? What would suggest it in the passage?)? Or is it rather all of Salvation? Doesn't the former make Christ's work only sufficient to the day I called and then the rest is up to me? How do I keep track of whether I've kept it or lost it? If I've lost it, can I get *it back?
*It is really Him. Salvation is found in Him. His actions have saved me.
As for works: I believe a new creation produces fruit in keeping with that nature. Ephesians 2:10 says "His" workmanship. I appreciate a zealous desire to love the Lord and believe it too a part of a new nature for desire, but I believe perfect Love according to 1 John 4:18 is an altogether different reason for the desire. Look too, to the parable of the unfruitful tree. Luke 13:6-9 The tree is made for fruit, but it up to the Gardener to cause its growth. The nature of a tree is to produce in keeping with its nature. Perseverance of the Saints, as I understand it, is about God's work in us, rather than us trying in light of Ephesians 2:10 Notice the reluctance of the orchard owner to cut down the tree. God knows the nature of His new creations. The thief on the cross had no works or fruit produced. He was with the Lord Jesus Christ in Paradise. -Lon