Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

It is not denying Jesus to obey his words.

Works based is about things that really do not matter when it comes to doing right...like circumcision.

Think of works in two ways...purification/ceremonial works; and, God's work.

We have to do what God says to do.

It is good, EE.

How can you do what Jesus says and not say how good it is?

When you forgive others as Jesus says to do, it feels good deep in your heart, does it not?

When you do anything that Jesus says, is it not right and feel so good?

Don't be afraid to say we have to obey, for Jesus is patient and long suffering.

Who would like it to preach against those who preach obedience?

The devil likes it.

Please read my post to you carefully that I wrote specifically to you. I'll rapid link it... Be right back...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...aughty-List)&p=4951487&viewfull=1#post4951487

For you [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION]

Please check the scripture that is inlaid... please read it carefully.

 

[God's Truth]

Please read my post to you carefully that I wrote specifically to you. I'll rapid link it... Be right back...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...aughty-List)&p=4951487&viewfull=1#post4951487

For you [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION]

Please check the scripture that is inlaid... please read it carefully.

I don't think you read what I wrote carefully enough.

Why don't you give me a chance?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I don't think you read what I wrote carefully enough.

Why don't you give me a chance?

I'm off for the night. I offer the infinite chances Jesus offers me daily. I am bound to such a behavior.

: )

 

[God's Truth]

Here it is... Are you "In the Son". Or... are you "In the Father"?

I am Jesus’ family and I am in Jesus and in the Father.

Keep in mind. To have the Father as your Head... would make you GOD!

How do you get that?

To be "In" the Son is to be In God and thus have God in you.

Do you understand this?

When a person is saved, they have the Father AND the Son in them.

To understand the "name" of God is to understand that when all is One, we will stand before ONE.

We will all be like Jesus, and God will be all in all. That does not mean Jesus is not God, it is just that we who have bodies will all be like God and not need to go through Jesus anymore.

That ONE manifests or expresses Himself in "multi-dimensional" ways. (God... Spirit... Father... Infinite... Limitless... Timeless) (The Light of Creation... The LOGOS... the very Expression of God as our face and voice is to us... yet fully God... within Creation... within Time) (Ruach HaKadesh... Holy Spirit... The Presence of God within Man)

Do you understand?

Mind, Body, Soul...

Spirit, Blood, Water...

Father, Son, Holy Spirit...

Omniscient, Omnipresent, Infinite (Father)
God With Us, Within Creation, Within Time (Son)
God Within Us (Holy Spirit)

Do you understand?

Trinitarian yet Mono Theist

We must acknowledge the Trinity, because it is the revelation of our utter dependency on God to be connected to God through faith, alone!

The trinity is a doctrine and it is false.

Faith IN the Son and the Complete work of God (Gn. 2:2; John 19:30; Philippians 1:6, 16f)

Per Php. 1:6, 16 ... His work in us is incomplete until the end of all things, when all things are One, Spiritual/Celestial and New!

We must relinquish our Carnal... Earthly... Effort! To say we "OBEY" is to spit in His face and HIS WORK ALONE!

You are His Workmanship (Ephesians 2:10)! You are not your own (1 Co. 6:19f)!

You must only (Eph. 2:8f)

By saying you OBEY beyond belief is reaching for the fruit of GOD... THE LAW... THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL... (Gn. 3:5 and Is. 14:14)

We must understand!!!

The Logos... The Son... is the Tree of LIFE!
(John 6:29, 63)

His flesh alone profits us. His imputed righteousness alone profits us!

As we are "In" the Son... through Faith in His Love... we must relinquish our carnal effort and TRUST That (2 Co. 12:9)

We BOAST of our infirmity and weakness, to BOAST of HIS unmerited LOVE for US that is (1 John 4:8 and 1 Co. 13:1-13)

God's Truth... (Ephesians 1:14 not Is. 13:13 or Is. 14:14). Otherwise we are (Eph. 4:14)

In the Son... we receive the HOLY SPIRIT (Php. 1:19)

Thus... We are in the Son and the Son is In the Father, who is In the Son.

We are IN Jesus... We are not Jesus.

We are sinners (Mk. 2:17) declared righteous by His work alone. Faith in His work alone!

(2 Co. 5:21)

Anything else is (Rm. 10:3)

We cannot deny the Trinity or our absolute monotheism.

We have faith in the One, through the Work of the One... that was manifested "In His Son" (John 3:16f)... so that He has full reign over We... despite our current infirmities!

We boast in HIS obedience... Not OURS!

We have someone to obey since he obeyed.
How do you ever get that we do not have to obey Jesus since he obeyed?

Jesus says we will remain in his love if we obey, JUST LIKE HE obeyed and remain in the Father’s love.

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

 

[Robert Pate]

I am Jesus’ family and I am in Jesus and in the Father.



How do you get that?




When a person is saved, they have the Father AND the Son in them.



We will all be like Jesus, and God will be all in all. That does not mean Jesus is not God, it is just that we who have bodies will all be like God and not need to go through Jesus anymore.



The trinity is a doctrine and it is false.



We have someone to obey since he obeyed.
How do you ever get that we do not have to obey Jesus since he obeyed?

Jesus says we will remain in his love if we obey, JUST LIKE HE obeyed and remain in the Father’s love.

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

You are not "In Christ" to be in Christ means that you are trusting in his righteousness and not your own.

To be "In Christ" means that you have ceased from your own works and obedience and you have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

 

[God's Truth]

You are not "In Christ" to be in Christ means that you are trusting in his righteousness and not your own.

To be "In Christ" means that you have ceased from your own works and obedience and you have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

I am in Christ and I do trust his righteousness so that I do not have to get circumcised and do the other external washings. I do not do my own work, I do God's work, like we are supposed to. Doing God's works means to believe and obey Jesus.

As Peter says, only an unstable and ignorant person would misunderstand the scriptures and think that we no longer have to obey God, see 2 Peter 3; and James calls you a fool, see James 2:20.

You are as blind as the Calvinists who can't see the scriptures about all men can be saved.

It is sad to see two blind people trying to teach each other. Jesus says you both will fall into a pit.

Matthew 15:14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."


Jesus thinks you should go in the pit since you deny the truth. So I must not feel sorry for either of you anymore.

I will tell you easily how you can know you are wrong.

Ready?

Anyone who goes against obeying Jesus, in any way, is WRONG and blind and against God.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus says to obey him.

Robert Pate says, "That is old words that are obsolete".

Jesus says my words will never pass away.

Robert Pate says, "There is a new way and it is good news that we do not have to obey".

Jesus says that you misunderstand Paul and are unstable and ignorant and foolish.

Robert Pate says, "Peter and James were talking about the old way."


If Peter was talking about the old way---then why did Peter speak of PAUL?!

 

[God's Truth]

To be "In Christ" means that you have ceased from your own works and obedience and you have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

You have no understanding of the truth.

Paul says that we ALL are working every day.

Every day we are either doing good, or doing bad.

We are either doing good works, or bad works.

There is no time when we are not doing anything right or wrong.

To claim not obeying is a rest is outrageous.

Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

The scripture says sin is a work too.

You claim we do not have to obey and that it is a works salvation.

Sin is a work too.

If you are not working by obeying, then YOU ARE WORKING BY SINNING.

You have to repent of your sins to be saved and to stay saved.

 

[Shasta]

We will not receive salvation in this life by earning it through works of the law but all "works" (actions, choices, activities) are not works of the law. The kind of activity that comes out of our relationship with Him is called fruit because it is organic and living. However, it is only by actively abiding in that relationship with Him until the end we will receive the final gift of eternal life.

Romans 2:6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Eternal life will not be given to those who at one time "prayed the sinners prayer" and made a "profession of faith" but then went on to practice a lifestyle of sin.

In the Parable of the Unjust Servant (Matthew 24:45-51), the servant initially is in submission to the Master. The Master has a personal relationship with him and has put him in a position of trust; nevertheless, when the Master delays his coming the servant changes his manner of life. He indulges in drunkenness and abuses his fellow servants. When the Master returns does He let this slide because AT ONE TIME the servant was in right standing with the Master? No, according to Jesus, he is brought to judgment and the consequences are more than a loss of reward:

50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:50-51)

While it is true that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" obeying Christ is not a "work of the (Mosaic) law" it is simply part of our relationship with Him. When Christ said "abide in me" He was telling us to remain, stay, and continue in that place of dependent trust. If we dependently trust in Him then, by definition, we obey.

 

[God's Truth]

We will not receive salvation in this life by earning it through works of the law but all "works" (actions, choices, activities) are not works of the law. The kind of activity that comes out of our relationship with Him is called fruit because it is organic and living. However, it is only by actively abiding in that relationship with Him until the end we will receive the final gift of eternal life.

Romans 2:6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Eternal life will not be given to those who at one time "prayed the sinners prayer" and made a "profession of faith" but then went on to practice a lifestyle of sin.

In the Parable of the Unjust Servant (Matthew 24:45-51), the servant initially is in submission to the Master. The Master has a personal relationship with him and has put him in a position of trust; nevertheless, when the Master delays his coming the servant changes his manner of life. He indulges in drunkenness and abuses his fellow servants. When the Master returns does He let this slide because AT ONE TIME the servant was in right standing with the Master? No, according to Jesus, he is brought to judgment and the consequences are more than a loss of reward:

50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:50-51)

While it is true that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" obeying Christ is not a "work of the (Mosaic) law" it is simply part of our relationship with Him. When Christ said "abide in me" He was telling us to remain, stay, and continue in that place of dependent trust. If we dependently trust in Him then, by definition, we obey.

So much of what you say is good reading and true, but I think there are some parts that need a little clarification.

For instance, Jesus came for the Jews who already belonged to God, they were God's, but now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

Jesus tells his people to remain in him...not to leave him...because without him they can do nothing.

That does NOT mean those who are not yet in him cannot obey to get in him, for that is the ONLY way to get in Jesus, we have to do what he says.

You are right when you say not all work is works we no longer have to do, for justification works were the purification/ceremonial works...those are the works we no longer have to do because Jesus cleans/justifies us now---that does not mean we do not have to obey anymore.

When Jesus came to earth, he came first for those who already belonged to God; when Jesus was crucified, then all could come to him to be saved.

Jesus tells us how to be saved. He tells us that we have to fear God and humble ourselves and admit we are sinners, we have to have forgiving hearts, we have to repent of our sins, and we have to call on him for help.

After we are saved we have to continue to obey, for that is how we live in him and how he lives in us.

You have proved with scripture that people can lose their salvation if they do not continue to obey.

 

[Shasta]

When God commands the elects to obey, they obey.

So when the "elect" do not obey it is God's fault for not having commanded them to.

 

[Shasta]

So much of what you say is good reading and true, but I think there are some parts that need a little clarification.

For instance, Jesus came for the Jews who already belonged to God, they were God's, but now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

Jesus tells his people to remain in him...not to leave him...because without him they can do nothing.

That does NOT mean those who are not yet in him cannot obey to get in him, for that is the ONLY way to get in Jesus, we have to do what he says.

You are right when you say not all work is works we no longer have to do, for justification works were the purification/ceremonial works...those are the works we no longer have to do because Jesus cleans/justifies us now---that does not mean we do not have to obey anymore.

When Jesus came to earth, he came first for those who already belonged to God; when Jesus was crucified, then all could come to him to be saved.

Jesus tells us how to be saved. He tells us that we have to fear God and humble ourselves and admit we are sinners, we have to have forgiving hearts, we have to repent of our sins, and we have to call on him for help.

After we are saved we have to continue to obey, for that is how we live in him and how he lives in us.

You have proved with scripture that people can lose their salvation if they do not continue to obey.

I like most of what you say as well, however, I disagree with your relegating John 15 to a small band of Jewish believers in the First Century. It seems to me that what the fullness of these passages meant could not have been realized until after the resurrection when Jesus could commune with the hearts of all His disciples through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Shasta]

You know I keep wondering who is going to defend the OP of this thread which is that: "You must be already saved to get saved"

 

[God's Truth]

I like most of what you say as well, however, I disagree with your relegating John 15 to a small band of Jewish believers in the First Century.

Those are to whom Jesus came first. He came first for the Jews called the lost sheep of Israel. His words are for all, but first to the Jews who already belonged to God.

It seems to me that the fullness of these passages meant could not have been realized until after the resurrection when Jesus could commune with the hearts of all His disciples through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

No, no way, for Jesus said that they KNEW the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit had been living with them.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

 

[God's Truth]

Shasta,

Please, let's talk about this more. These are the deep things of God.

I do have to go for now and I hope to be on tonight to speak more with you.

 

[Robert Pate]

You know I keep wondering who is going to defend the OP of this thread which is that: "You must be already saved to get saved"

I was hoping that some Calvinist would explain that to us.

 

[Shasta]

Shasta,

Please, let's talk about this more. These are the deep things of God.

I do have to go for now and I hope to be on tonight to speak more with you.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

He had been with them but would be IN them. This indicated a change perhaps in the interpersonal "distance" between God and the believer. Under the New Covenant man would be forgiven and cleansed so that Christ could dwell in our hearts by faith - through the immediate presence of the Holy Spirit. This was part and parcel of what the New Covenant was meant to accomplish.

…26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances (Ezekiel 36:27).

Verse 26 speaks of giving us a new heart and spirit in place of our old unyielding one. This is speaking out our cleansing and sanctification
Verse 27 speaks of God putting HIS Spirit within us. This is referring to the Holy Spirit which is joined to the human spirit when one is born again "after the Spirit"

It is only by yielding our members to the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:13) that we can obey God from the heart (Romans 6:17). Without Him we are merely trying to obey the principles written down in the Book which the Jews had tried to do with little success.

Paul said

16...walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
(Galatians 5:16)

He did not say that if we try very hard not to gratify the desires of the flesh we will walk in the Spirit. That is getting the cart before the horse. Apart from the Spirit we cannot win this struggle

17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to one another, so that you do not do what you want.… (Galatians 5:17)

The Spirit connects us to the Vine, our source of life, through whom we can bear fruit. This is why His commands are not burdensome to us. When I hear people complaining when we speak of obeying God's commandments I know they do not understand that faith is not about being strong in ourselves. It is about knowing we are weak and therefore opting to be dependent.

 

[TulipBee]

So when the "elect" do not obey it is God's fault for not having commanded them to.

All mankind disobeyed. You faked obeyed on imaginary free will. God does the saving first and then as the result the elects obeyed.

 

[Shasta]

All mankind disobeyed. You faked obeyed on imaginary free will. God does the saving first and then as the result the elects obeyed.

30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30)

Here the man is told to believe in the Lord Jesus. The word "believe" is in the imperative mood aorist tense meaning that it was a single action he must take. The next part of the sentence reveals what the consequence would be "you will be saved." The verb "will be saved" is in the future tense because the act of believing would be followed by a subsequent a change in the man's eternal status. The jailor would go from being an unregenerate person to being a saved person.

The man was not saved to start off with and he would not be until he believed. Salvation would be the consequence of his putting his faith in Jesus Christ. This shows that the "elect" are not already "saved before they are actually saved" (which is the OP of the thread). The text also does not say that being one of the the elect the jailer was already saved but merely had to be brought into obedience. These ideas are not remotely suggested by the text itself. This is just eisegesis designed to make the scripture fit into the paradigm of Theistic determinism.

As for what I said. Is it UNreasonable to assume that a God who can predetermine that men submit to Him could also irresistibly cause them to carry out His orders? Yet believers disobey Him all the time.

 

[TulipBee]

30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30)

Here the man is told to believe in the Lord Jesus. The word "believe" is in the imperative mood aorist tense meaning that it was a single action he must take. The next part of the sentence reveals what the consequence would be "you will be saved." The verb "will be saved" is in the future tense because the act of believing would be followed by a subsequent a change in the man's eternal status. The jailor would go from being an unregenerate person to being a saved person.

The man was not saved to start off with and he would not be until he believed. Salvation would be the consequence of his putting his faith in Jesus Christ. This shows that the "elect" are not already "saved before they are actually saved" (which is the OP of the thread). The text also does not say that being one of the the elect the jailer was already saved but merely had to be brought into obedience. These ideas are not remotely suggested by the text itself. This is just eisegesis designed to make the scripture fit into the paradigm of Theistic determinism.

As for what I said. Is it UNreasonable to assume that a God who can predetermine that men submit to Him could also irresistibly cause them to carry out His orders? Yet believers disobey Him all the time.