Other than that it tells you right to your face :idunno:
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Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Other than that it tells you right to your face :idunno:
Other than that it tells you right to your face :idunno:
There is not one scripture in the whole Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.
Its a fairy tale.
Brother Ducky
New member
Acts 13:48. And no, you do not get to rearrange the words to make it say what you have decided God should have said. Unless, of course, you are going to say it is permissible for others to twist Scripture.
The "inheritance" is salvation, sanctification and glorification. This is God's great free gift to all who believe on his Son Jesus Christ.
This is God's predestinated will and purpose for his people.
fishrovmen
Active member
Pateism: You must already be reconciled to get reconciled?
Nothing is ours until it is received.
fishrovmen
Active member
You cant be both reconciled and not reconciled at the same time. You either are reconciled or your not. Do you know what the law of non-contradiction is? Oh thats right...you arent bound by any laws.
Pate's argument is that it doesn't make sense that if a person was predestined as the elect from the start that they should yet receive what they already had.
In other words, Pate hasn't really done a whole lot of thinking about how Calvinist predestination works because he spends so much time crusading against it
Brother Ducky
New member
Well, Calvinist or no, since you claim these verses do apply to you, then you have to say that you were predestined.
Reconciliation has been provided for you by the doing and the dying of Jesus.
But its not yours if you don't receive it.
Pate's argument is that it doesn't make sense that if a person was predestined as the elect from the start that they should yet receive what they already had.
In other words, Pate hasn't really done a whole lot of thinking about how Calvinist predestination works because he spends so much time crusading against it
Calvinism is one of the easiest doctrines to refute because there is so much scripture that opposes it.
Answer this. If Jesus has already reconciled the world unto God, why does anyone need to be predestinated?
fishrovmen
Active member
So if someone doesn't "receive" the reconciliation, are they reconciled?
Of course not. What if some enemy of yours extended a friendly hand and you said, Hell no!
God has forgiven us all of our sins and extends a friendly hand. Will you receive it?
fishrovmen
Active member
So then you just proved my point, that they were NEVER reconciled!
Brother Ducky
New member
You are so inconsistent with your terminology. I can see your point here, if and only if, you were not so often saying that all are already reconciled.
A "provided" reconciliation is not reconciliation. The fact remains...at any point in time you are reconciled to God, or you are not reconciled to God.
Brother Ducky
New member
If God says you are reconciled you are reconciled. No matter what you shake.
Dialogos
Well-known member
This constant shifting of terminology is enough to make one's head spin.
:hammer:
God's work of reconciliation and God's work of predestination are bound up in the same reality, the cross.
On the cross, and because of the cross, the elect are reconciled to God. Because of the cross, the elect are predestined.
The cross is the satisfaction for the penalty of all sin, including the sin of unbelief, and is the power of God over sin, including the sin of unbelief.
You can't affirm that the cross is the power over the sin of unbelief because in your view belief and unbelief have nothing to do with God, that is solely and wholly the work of man.
And that's why Acts 13:48 totally frustrates your theology and why you seek to pervert it.
:hammer:
And with this question you continue to demonstrate that you are essential ignorant of that which you criticize the most.Robert Pate said:
God's work of reconciliation and God's work of predestination are bound up in the same reality, the cross.
On the cross, and because of the cross, the elect are reconciled to God. Because of the cross, the elect are predestined.
The cross is the satisfaction for the penalty of all sin, including the sin of unbelief, and is the power of God over sin, including the sin of unbelief.
You can't affirm that the cross is the power over the sin of unbelief because in your view belief and unbelief have nothing to do with God, that is solely and wholly the work of man.
And that's why Acts 13:48 totally frustrates your theology and why you seek to pervert it.
So, you believe that you can receive the reconciliation that God has offered to us in Jesus Christ and continue on the side of the devil?
If God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, then why does anyone need to be predestinated?
HisServant
New member
I think scripture is very clear that those that are unsaved would under no circumstance chose salvation of their own accord without an outside influence acting on them first.
The darkness hates the light, all have sinned, we are all corrupt, every single one of us. It is just not within the natures we are born with to chose God.
So he has to move in us first to enable us to make that choice.
Then you come to the question of does he enable people knowing that they ultimate will not chose him (which makes out God to be quite cruel) or does he enable those he knows will chose him.
The later is pretty plainly explained in scripture... it's called predestination.
God chooses Christians based on is own divine will much like he chose the descendants of Abraham in the Old Testament.
Ultimately it is he that does the choosing, not us.
The darkness hates the light, all have sinned, we are all corrupt, every single one of us. It is just not within the natures we are born with to chose God.
So he has to move in us first to enable us to make that choice.
Then you come to the question of does he enable people knowing that they ultimate will not chose him (which makes out God to be quite cruel) or does he enable those he knows will chose him.
The later is pretty plainly explained in scripture... it's called predestination.
God chooses Christians based on is own divine will much like he chose the descendants of Abraham in the Old Testament.
Ultimately it is he that does the choosing, not us.