Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[glorydaz]

Calvinism always confused me about this.

You can only be saved if you are elected / predestined.
No one can know they are predestined / elected unless they believe.
A Calvinist on here says that believing is a work.
Works are looked down on and shows you're counterfeit.

This doesn't make sense at all to me.

Well, Paul makes it clear that believing is NOT a work.

Romans 4:3-5
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

 

[glorydaz]

Them in the flesh can't please God! That's all men by nature!

I see you can't refute what I posted. It's faith that pleases God, and that faith comes when we are persuaded by the Gospel when it's preached. It pleases God when we come to Him with faith. We are no longer in the flesh when we have faith.

Rather you claim those who sit back and are elected when they did nothing to please God. It's faith that pleases God. Faith comes from HEARING.

Therefore, when you take a verse out of context, like you do that one, you're attempting to use the scripture deceitfully. That's not good. You like to pretend that Paul did not explain all this already, so I'm not sure who you think you're trying to fool here. :think:

 

[Dialogos]

I, myself, had to hear the Gospel, and place my faith in Christ as
my Savior. Does a Calvinist have to follow the same route?

Yes.

A Calvinist has finally gotten around to answering that question for you.

Which, incidentally, is why Pate's ridiculous argument that Calvinists believe they are "saved" before they are saved is yet another one of his intentional misrepresentations (i.e. another lie proceeding from a lying tongue).

Unfortunately, this no longer surprises me as he rarely accurately represents anyone with whom he disagrees. Apparently, to Pate, lying about Calvinism is justified...

 

[Bright Raven]

Yes.

A Calvinist has finally gotten around to answering that question for you.

Which, incidentally, is why Pate's ridiculous argument that Calvinists believe they are "saved" before they are saved is yet another one of his intentional misrepresentations (i.e. another lie proceeding from a lying tongue).

Unfortunately, this no longer surprises me as he rarely accurately represents anyone with whom he disagrees. Apparently, to Pate, lying about Calvinism is justified...

Not so, Check with Nanja and B57

 

[Dialogos]

Well, Paul makes it clear that believing is NOT a work.

Romans 4:3-5
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

No, Glordaz, you are correct. In Pauline thought faith is not a work.

However, Paul also said that faith is "not of yourselves..." (Eph 2:8) which isn't something that non-Calvinists can affirm without some fancy theological footwork or mental gymnastics.

 

[Dialogos]

Not so, Check with Nanja and B57

Do you really think that it is fair to offer these two posters as the typical representatives of Calvinism the world over?

B57 is about as Hyper as hyper-calvinism gets...

I'm sure that with a little effort on google I could find some folks on the fringe of arminianism or open theism that you would argue are not representative of your own position.

In my view, an honest conversation starts when one compares the most reasonable Calvinists to the most reasonable arminians or open theists rather than offer up the best arminianism has to offer against to most fringe and non-representative examples of hyper-calvinism.

And that means taking someone like AMR, or Lon, or Brother Ducky, or hopefully I would do in a pinch, and letting our testimony about what Calvinism is and is not be at least factored into the evaluation.

Or, show us where someone like R.C. Sproul, MacArthur, Pink, Piper, or even Calvin etc.. teach what you claim Calvinism teaches.

But, if you all prefer to take some non-representative poster and use their non-representative opinions to stack to deck so that you can quickly declare victory and go around patting yourselves on the back, be my guest.....


I'm pretty confident most people can see through that...

 

[beloved57]

I see you can't refute what I posted. It's faith that pleases God, and that faith comes when we are persuaded by the Gospel when it's preached. It pleases God when we come to Him with faith. We are no longer in the flesh when we have faith.

Rather you claim those who sit back and are elected when they did nothing to please God. It's faith that pleases God. Faith comes from HEARING.

Therefore, when you take a verse out of context, like you do that one, you're attempting to use the scripture deceitfully. That's not good. You like to pretend that Paul did not explain all this already, so I'm not sure who you think you're trying to fool here. :think:

Those in the flesh can't please God, all by nature are in the flesh !

 

[glorydaz]

No, Glordaz, you are correct. In Pauline thought faith is not a work.

However, Paul also said that faith is "not of yourselves..." (Eph 2:8) which isn't something that non-Calvinists can affirm without some fancy theological footwork or mental gymnastics.

Actually, Paul did not say faith is not of yourselves.

Eph. 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


IT is the gift of God.
IT is not of works.
It is not of yourselves.

What is IT that Paul is talking about?

He's talking about how we are saved. He's talking about salvation.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

 

[glorydaz]

Those in the flesh can't please God, all by nature are in the flesh !

Rewind that tape so you can play it back again and again. :nono:

 

[beloved57]

Rewind that tape so you can play it back again and again. :nono:

You dont believe or understand that Truth, you are confused and make no sense !

 

[beloved57]

Actually, Paul did not say faith is not of yourselves.

Eph. 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


IT is the gift of God.
IT is not of works.
It is not of yourselves.

What is IT that Paul is talking about?

He's talking about how we are saved. He's talking about salvation.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

You dont believe or understand Rom 6:23 !

 

[beloved57]

glory

We are no longer in the flesh when we have faith.

One cant have Faith until they are no longer in the flesh. All men naturally are in the flesh !

 

[beloved57]

glory

It's faith that pleases God. Faith comes from HEARING.

Those in the flesh cant please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

All men by nature are in the flesh !

 

[Robert Pate]

No one has been predestinated. There is no scripture that says anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. It is a false doctrine.

The doctrine of predestination is in conflict with the Gospel and the grace of God that is taught in the Bible.

John 3:16 says, "God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son."

This scripture is in direct conflict with predestinationism.

Salvation has been provided for all, not just some. Should we believe Jesus or should we believe John Calvin?

 

[ttruscott]

No one has been predestinated. There is no scripture that says anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. It is a false doctrine.

The doctrine of predestination is in conflict with the Gospel and the grace of God that is taught in the Bible.

Ephesians 1:11 ...also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Predestined: Strong's G4309 - proorizō
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand

...predestined / foreordained / appointed beforehand according to HIS purposes of heaven and hell, the full theme of the whole Bible, the essence of the gospel.

 

[Nanja]

No one has been predestinated. There is no scripture that says anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. It is a false doctrine.

The doctrine of predestination is in conflict with the Gospel and the grace of God that is taught in the Bible.

John 3:16 says, "God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son."

This scripture is in direct conflict with predestinationism.

Salvation has been provided for all, not just some. Should we believe Jesus or should we believe John Calvin?

We should not believe Pate's lies either, but only the scriptures
which absolutely do declare the doctrine of predestination for
those who are The Called according to God's Purpose: The Elect!.


Rom. 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


The only ones who are the Called according to God's Purpose are God's Elect. That's it!
They were Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation, IN LOVE Eph 1:4.
It's the only World (kosmos; collection of particulars), that God Loved:

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

~~~~~

 

[Bright Raven]

We should not believe Pate's lies either, but only the scriptures
which absolutely do declare the doctrine of predestination for
those who are The Called according to God's Purpose: The Elect!.


Rom. 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


The only ones who are the Called according to God's Purpose are God's Elect. That's it!
They were Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation, IN LOVE Eph 1:4.
It's the only World (kosmos; collection of particulars), that God Loved:

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

~~~~~

And with John 3:16, that is the entirety of the world. To whosoever believes, salvation is given.

 

[Crucible]

And with John 3:16, that is the entirety of the world. To whosoever believes, salvation is given.

Yeah.. using what is probably the most popular verse in the entire Bible doesn't do much in the way of proving a five century old theology wrong.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Robert Pate]

We should not believe Pate's lies either, but only the scriptures
which absolutely do declare the doctrine of predestination for
those who are The Called according to God's Purpose: The Elect!.


Rom. 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


The only ones who are the Called according to God's Purpose are God's Elect. That's it!
They were Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation, IN LOVE Eph 1:4.
It's the only World (kosmos; collection of particulars), that God Loved:

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

~~~~~

 

[Robert Pate]

And with John 3:16, that is the entirety of the world. To whosoever believes, salvation is given.

Romans 8:28-30 does not prove that anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell.

All of those scriptures also apply to me who is not a Calvinist.