Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[Totton Linnet]

Interesting thing about that verse...

Who is Jesus talking to? Who would He have gathered together? Who would not? Not all the same entity (or group of people). He's talking to Jerusalem (the religious leaders)...He would have gathered the children (the general people)...but the leaders "...would not."

EDIT : Alternatively, you could have Him speaking to the city in a spiritual sense...but there is still a distinction between Jerusalem and her children.

wonderful

 

[beloved57]

1 - The expression "You must already be saved to get saved" is possible but only under the context of universal salvation; that's the kind of salvation Jesus referred to in John 4:22 as the salvation that comes from the Jews. That's also the kind of salvation Abraham mentioned in Genesis 18:32.

2 - And for this item above, you are mistaken Robert. We have not only the Prophets against that method according to Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20 but also Jesus himself who said that for such, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

the jews, the physical descendants of abraham are not the children of God Rom 9:8


8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So salvation cannot be of the children of the devil !

 

[Robert Pate]

No sir, the cross is there as the fact of her belief, the focus of her belief/faith that GOD made her believe/have faith in even if she is wrong about our creation and our fall.

Because she is under the power of the cross by her election, she is able to have her enslavement to sin ended and to be brought belief, not being condemned already.

God doesn't make anyone believe or have faith.

Faith and belief come by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

 

[Crucible]

God has the power to limit himself if he so chose to do so.

The fact of the matter is that He does not, and your idea that He would purposefully make Himself ignorant of something, even if He were able to, is stupid.

 

[Robert Pate]

The fact of the matter is that He does not, and your idea that He would purposefully make Himself ignorant of something, even if He were able to, is stupid.

It appears that the angels in heaven don't know who is going to be saved, Luke 15:10.

"Praise God another one accepted Christ".

 

[False Prophet]

Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

John Calvin never said that.

 

[Robert Pate]

Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

John Calvin never said that.

I believe that he did. Predestination means that you were saved before the foundation of the world. But you don't know that until you get zapped by the Holy Spirit and get saved again.

 

[Brother Ducky]

I believe that he did. Predestination means that you were saved before the foundation of the world. But you don't know that until you get zapped by the Holy Spirit and get saved again.

Fair enough. I do not read a lot of Calvin, but where does he say that those who are predestined are saved before the foundation of the world? And as always, and more importantly [I would hold] where is that claim made officially, viz. what Creeds, Confessions, and/or Catechism would so state?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes it's a work, something that a person does !

What's the difference between you and a Parrot? Answer: There is no difference.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I would like to know, at what point does a Calvinist know they're one of the Elect? What experience, sign, or wonder lets them know?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I, myself, had to hear the Gospel, and place my faith in Christ as
my Savior. Does a Calvinist have to follow the same route?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists never seem to get around to answering that, all important question?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I have a hunch that, they have to hear the Gospel first? Otherwise, there
would have to be some kind of experience they go through?

 

[glorydaz]

Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !

Those in the flesh have no faith. Without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

What is faith?

Heb. 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

Where does that HOPE come from?

Colossians 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;​

Ah, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That "word of the truth of the gospel. Col. 1:5

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

And how shall they BELIEVE, and how shall they hear without a preacher preaching the Gospel?

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?​

Too many people are unwilling to give heed to the steps that take place so they can toss out one verse they hope will erase the evidence right there for all to see. We are persuaded to believe by hearing the Gospel preached. Simple enough!

 

[ttruscott]

To teach that you must already be saved to get saved is an insult to human intellect. That is the same as saying that before you buy a car you must already own it. If you already own it why would you need to buy it? If you are already saved why would you need to get saved again?

GOD invited us to accept HIS deity and be elected to a certain heaven by an equally certain salvation from all sin.

For those who accepted HIS promise of election who later sinned and became evil, they are indeed saved by their previous decision to bow to YHWH as their GOD and accept HIS election to heaven by faith (not proof) but because they are now sinners by their choice to be evil in HIS sight, they need to be brought back to their first free will decision to be committed to HIM, that is, they need to be reborn with a new mind renewed in their spirit...a process called salvation.

We indeed own the car but have destroyed our memory of that by some very bad decisions so we now think the car is a piece of junk. Thus HE must bring us back to our first decision to own the car by destroying the effects of our bad decisions and renewing our faith so we again think it / He is the way to eternal life.

 

[ttruscott]

I believe that he did. Predestination means that you were saved before the foundation of the world. But you don't know that until you get zapped by the Holy Spirit and get saved again.

You only hate predestination because it seems arbitrary to you but it was not - We chose HIM or against HIM and He rewarded us who chose HIM by predestining us to heaven by a promise called election to be fulfilled in Christ for those of us who later fell into sin.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You only hate predestination because it seems arbitrary to you but it was not - We chose HIM or against HIM and He rewarded us who chose HIM by predestining us to heaven by a promise called election to be fulfilled in Christ for those of us who later fell into sin.

Huh?

 

[beloved57]

Those in the flesh have no faith. Without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

What is faith?

Heb. 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

Where does that HOPE come from?

Colossians 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;​

Ah, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That "word of the truth of the gospel. Col. 1:5

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

And how shall they BELIEVE, and how shall they hear without a preacher preaching the Gospel?

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?​

Too many people are unwilling to give heed to the steps that take place so they can toss out one verse they hope will erase the evidence right there for all to see. We are persuaded to believe by hearing the Gospel preached. Simple enough!

Them in the flesh can't please God! That's all men by nature!

 

[beloved57]

GOD invited us to accept HIS deity and be elected to a certain heaven by an equally certain salvation from all sin.

For those who accepted HIS promise of election who later sinned and became evil, they are indeed saved by their previous decision to bow to YHWH as their GOD and accept HIS election to heaven by faith (not proof) but because they are now sinners by their choice to be evil in HIS sight, they need to be brought back to their first free will decision to be committed to HIM, that is, they need to be reborn with a new mind renewed in their spirit...a process called salvation.

We indeed own the car but have destroyed our memory of that by some very bad decisions so we now think the car is a piece of junk. Thus HE must bring us back to our first decision to own the car by destroying the effects of our bad decisions and renewing our faith so we again think it / He is the way to eternal life.

False statements!

 

[beloved57]

You only hate predestination because it seems arbitrary to you but it was not - We chose HIM or against HIM and He rewarded us who chose HIM by predestining us to heaven by a promise called election to be fulfilled in Christ for those of us who later fell into sin.

False statements!