Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
This is true. These are indeed your words and ideas. If really wanted to explore the actual OBJECTIVE meanings of the Greek word for "world" (kosmos)you could have used the online linguistic tools which are both simple and available for everyone to use. While we are all perfectly free to hold our opinions and to express them in the manner we wish to, let us not insert our ideas into the text and then act as if we got them from there.

When I looked the word up in Thayer's Greek Lexicon I could not find any entries that defined "world" as a population of the "elect." Most often, according to the Lexicon, that is, not me, the term means simply the "inhabitants of the earth." Did Christ die for the whole world? Well the Bible says the following:

He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)

First John says that Christ was the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins, that is for all who like John are believers. Then he adds that the sacrifice was also for "the whole world." Now if "world" meant "the world of His sheep" then John has repeated himself for he himself IS a sheep in the Lord's pasture. Instead he says the sacrifice was made for everyone else by the lexical definition, for "all the inhabitants of the earth."
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You are not being honest about the word world. The word is the greek word kosmos and also means:
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any
sort

So all Gods Sheep are a World, that He Loved.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
You are not being honest about the word world. The word is the greek word kosmos and also means:
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any
sort

So all Gods Sheep are a World, that He Loved.
Click to expand...

Amen, My Brother!
 
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Shasta said:
Christ cannot save anyone as long as they are rejecting Him
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Which is exactly why no one is saved until God first acts (Eze. 36:26).

After all, the lost are quite incapable of saving themselves (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

:AMR:

AMR
 
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TulipBee

TulipBee

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Which is exactly why no one is saved until God first acts (Eze. 26:26).

After all, the lost are quite incapable of saving themselves (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

:AMR:

AMR
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The rejectors won't know they're rejecting. They're blind
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
You are not being honest about the word world. The word is the greek word kosmos and also means:
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any
sort

So all Gods Sheep are a World, that He Loved.
Click to expand...

I did not list every definition only the one which was most often used in scriptures. A "general collection of particulars" is just that - general. It does not identify any of these "particulars" as being the "elect." You have inserted that meaning into the Lexicon. Therefore your statement does nothing whatsoever to prove what you say it does.

You have repeatedly asked me if I thought Christ saved sinners. I already said yes already but there is more. According to the gospel to be saved an unbeliever must believe in Christ, who He is and that God raised Him from the dead. Somewhere in this process they will also repent of their sins. Now while The Holy Spirit's influence is necessary to bring about this change of heart human beings can and do resist the Spirit.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
I did not list every definition only the one which was most often used in scriptures. A "general collection of particulars" is just that - general. It does not identify any of these "particulars" as being the "elect." You have inserted that meaning into the Lexicon. Therefore your statement does nothing whatsoever to prove what you say it does.

You have repeatedly asked me if I thought Christ saved sinners. I already said yes already but there is more. According to the gospel to be saved an unbeliever must believe in Christ, who He is and that God raised Him from the dead. Somewhere in this process they will also repent of their sins. Now while The Holy Spirit's influence is necessary to bring about this change of heart human beings can and do resist the Spirit.
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I know you didn't list every definition. The scripture does however, that is why they are listed as definitions!

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R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Which is exactly why no one is saved until God first acts (Eze. 26:26).

After all, the lost are quite incapable of saving themselves (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

:AMR:

AMR
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The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Some come to Christ at an early age, some come to Christ later. Regardless, if you don't come to Christ then you are without an excuse. You will not be able to blame God if you go to hell, Romans 1:18-32.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Which is exactly why no one is saved until God first acts (Eze. 26:26).

After all, the lost are quite incapable of saving themselves (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).



:AMR:

AMR
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I do not know who is asserting that "unbelievers can save themselves." I certainly am not. I suspect this statement is merely a tactical attempt shift the discussion onto the premises of your belief system while substituting a straw man for mine. A true example of a belief system that holds that unbelievers can save themselves would be Legalism in which God saves people according their efforts to gain points in some religious meritocracy. I, for one, have never advocated such an idea.

Saying that unsaved men have to make a choice does not mean that this in itself EARNS their salvation. Whenever the gospel is preached in the scriptures they lay out the conditions, which stipulate how they should respond to the call. They are told, among other things, to repent of their sins, believe Christ died for their sins and rose from the dead. In short, they had to utterly trust in Christ. Though these things were laid out as conditions they were never taken to mean these actions, in themselves, MERITED salvation. At the same time, the evangelists did not present salvation as something completely involuntary. No one ever told his hearers audience “be still and see if God has already saved you.”

Fallen humanity does not naturally desire God, since it involves having a Master other than oneself and establishes serving God as a priority over serving the desires of the flesh (1 Corinthians 2:14, Galatians 5:17). However, fallen men are not left to find God on their own. The Holy Spirit is in the world working to "convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8)” and to persuade them of the truths about Jesus and the gospel (John 15:26). Though this is the Holy Spirit’s purpose and work and despite the fact that He is God, His influence can, nevertheless, be resisted, grieved and quenched (Isaiah 63:10, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thessalonians 5:19). Many times throughout history men have blocked the Spirit’s efforts to save them.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
I know you didn't list every definition. The scripture does however, that is why they are listed as definitions!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
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The text just says "world" any additional ideas arise from issues of interpretation not translation.

A.T. Robertson was a world class linguist and expert in the Greek New Testament. He was also a Baptist; however, I usually listen to what he says since his primary emphasis is not on interpretation but translation - the meaning of the words in the original language. About John 3:16 Robertson says the following:

The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2 Corinthians 5:19

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-3-16.html
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About John 1:29 Robertson says this:

Which taketh away the sin of the world (ho airon ten hamartian tou kosmou). Note singular amartian not plural hamartia ( 1 John 3:5 ) where same verb airo, to bear away, is used. The future work of the Lamb of God here described in present tense as in 1 John 1:7 about the blood of Christ. He is the Lamb of God for the world, not just for Jews.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-1-29.html
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The idea that ONLY a small subset of predestined humanity were to be the beneficiaries of Christ's sacrifice was simply not in anyone's mind at the time. That idea would not be part of Christian thinking until the fifth century when Augustine forcibly imposedhis Gnostic concepts on Western Christianity. What WAS a current idea was that God's Messianic blessings were only for the Jews but not the Gentiles. John the Baptist and John the Apostle both contradicted this, saying that the benefits of the atonement would be available to "the world" that is, to anybody and everybody - Jew or Gentile.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
The text just says "world" any additional ideas arise from issues of interpretation not translation.

A.T. Robertson was a world class linguist and expert in the Greek New Testament. He was also a Baptist; however, I usually listen to what he says since his primary emphasis is not on interpretation but translation - the meaning of the words in the original language. About John 3:16 Robertson says the following:



About John 1:29 Robertson says this:



The idea that ONLY a subset of pre-selected (multi-racial) humanity were to be the beneficiaries of Christ's sacrifice was simply not in anyone's mind at the time. That idea would not be fully developed until the fifth century when Augustine forcibly imposed his Gnostic concepts on Western Christianity. What WAS a current idea was that God's Messianic blessings were only for the Jews but not the Gentiles. John the Baptist and John the Apostle both contradicted this, saying that the benefits of the atonement would be available to any and all who would believe - Jew or Gentile.
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I know what the text says, it says world. However you are dishonest in giving the biblical definitions for the word kosmos as it's used in scripture.

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