BRXII Battle talk

[Redfin]

And for those who haven't "done enough" to gain the reward?

No one gains the reward by doing enough.

We gain the reward by trusting that Jesus did enough.

 

[red77]

It's not like I haven't tried to hold many discussions with you. But you just don't seem willing. Besides, it was your first post to me back on 409. So it's not like I came looking for another fruitless convo with you.



And again... another paragraph worth of red not liking the replies. :blabla:



It's obvious you have your docrtine and you are sticking with it. To be quite honest with you, I'd rather read a real answer to stipe's last question to you than continue another useless convo.

I'm not willing to waste time holding a conversation with someone who's constantly evasive and finds attempts at condescension equal some form of intelligent debate, its not a question of not liking your replies, half the time there's nothing to reply to, I'm tired of the same routine....

 

[Redfin]

Sometimes good and Godly people disagree on things. This hardly means we JUNK the whole Bible. It simply means we need to take more time and pray and study the Word of God more deeply.

Great point, PK! :thumb: Neither should we junk each other.

Please forgive me for when I have not reflected that truth.

 

[Redfin]

TAKE THE ETERNAL TORMENTOR'S CHALLENGE:

This requires only ONE feat of scriptural perspicacity.

Cite any passage of scripture that clearly proves that one's salvational status becomes static (immutable) after physical death.

PK, since you're now cut-&-pasting, this should be a snap!

 

[PKevman]

how can I put this? If something is described as "will" be testified to then its the future tense, is that right? If the ransom was already paid at the cross then the word "will" would have no place in the verse, now can you explain why this is?

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

What does it mean to testify Red?

 

[PKevman]

TAKE THE ETERNAL TORMENTOR'S CHALLENGE:

This requires only ONE feat of scriptural perspicacity.

Cite any passage of scripture that clearly proves that one's salvational status becomes static (immutable) after physical death.

PK, since you're now cut-&-pasting, this should be a snap!

At least I am cut and pasting my own stuff buddy. And I am tying it in with new stuff that I am posting in this thread....AND I am pasting stuff from the Battle Royale which is WHAT THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT!

As to your question it was answered in the Battle Royale. If you didn't read it tough! How about you respond to the myriad of questions I have asked of Universalists that have not been answered?

 

[red77]

Say Red, as long as you are saying that eternal torment is NOT a Biblical doctrine because different Christians believe differen things, then let's see if your logic holds through when it involves YOUR OWN beliefs:

Ok, lets see......

Logos believes the Lake of Fire is a literal fire. You don't believe it is a literal fire. Can YOU explain why YOUR doctrines on the subject of the Lake of Fire are different? And to use your OWN analogies, how can Universalism be true if so?

Universal salvation is about God achieving his will and reconciling all to himself, if logos does in fact believe the fire to be literal as in burning flames then we will differ on that as I dont, I'd be interested to hear Logos say this is what he believes though as that hasnt been the impression that I've got.....either way the pivotal part of our belief is that God accomplishes his own will, the LOF as with much of revelation is open to all sorts of differing interpretaions due to the symbolism - and in any belief there will be differences on theological aspects - but I doubt you'll find very many among those who believe that God is 100% successful in the end....

(Remember I am not saying that this is what makes Universalism false teaching, I am simply showing you how your own logic doesn't work)

Except it does work, the fundamentals of universal salvation are inherent in its own description, everything is reconciled to God, God is 100% successful in accomplishing his will, whatever theological differences there are between those who believe this are complete side issues, the goal is achieved by God and that is what is at the root

Universalism is false teaching because the Word of God condemns it as such. You cannot condemn what the Bible says about unbelievers spending eternity in the Lake of Fire with clear Scriptures, so you attempt to do it by pitting the beliefs of Christians against each other.

pastor, you have been supplied with clear verses on numerous occasions, some of which i will take the time to post here for you to see again.......
Also the inconsistency of those who ascribe to ET is just another factor of why ET doesnt hold water - not the main one, the main reason why ET doesnt work is it goes directly against scriptures of God being able to fulfill his will......such as:

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being pedestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:9-12)

(Now how much clearer does this need to get? this verse clearly states that God within his own parameters of time -no matter how long that may be- accomplishes his will, its God's purpose, God's pleasure to do this, he works all things out according to his will . Now if its God's will to all men to a knowledge of the truth and have them be safe then hey, I'm not going to argue with God who states that he will work all things out according to that will....)

For the Lord will not cast off forever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
(Lam 3:31)

(How does the Lord have people burning in torment with no end for this to be true? does God not have a multitude of tender mercies? Does his wrath win out in the end over his love? does mercy in effect not triumph over judgement ultimately?)

For he will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that All things are in subjection, it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that God may be all in all.
(1Cor:27-28)

(Will God be all in all -or some in all...? It seems that God has everything in tune with his own will, or is this not the case?)

“We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” I Tim. 4:10.

(this is obviously just as clear, although if you can explain how this doesnt read as straightforwardly as it appears then please explain again - this time while keeping the word 'especially' intact....not easy.......)

“And having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.” Col. 1:20

(again, how is this achieved if eternal torment is the outcome, just another case of "all not meaning all"?, its usually the only response given to this verse as there's not much other that can be given if you're already in the mindset that God cant in fact accomplish his own will.......)

that is just a handful of verses that are pretty clear in their context and there's no twisting or distorting necessary, so please explain how they are so far 'out of context' and that they dont or cant mean what they say....

Here is a newsflash:

Many people are simply wrong in their interpretations of Scriptures. I am sure when the glorious Day comes and I stand before my Lord, there will be things that I will know and understand fully that I don't know or understand now. But the doctrine of the eternality of the Lake of Fire and God's judgments on wicked, UNREDEEMED sinners and the wicked UNREDEEMED fallen angels is NOT one of them.

Good day and God bless.

Then until you're open to the fact that you yourself may be wrong or fallible in your interpretations - instead of everyone who disagrees - you will remain convinced that God cant accomplish his will, that mans 'free' will wins out, except that God works things all things after the counsel of his will........

Good day and God bless you too pastor

 

[Aimiel]

what is death cast into pastor? A literal fire? Can you please explain in basic terms how an intangible like death can be 'picked up' and then 'cast'.....into anything? Of course I see it as symbolic....! I cant honestly understand how it can make any sense to read it literally at all....! And as for the rest then I find it more than possible that people arent literally 'cast' into something much the same as death isnt......I dont pretend to understand revelation pastor, a lot of it I (and others in my experience) have had difficulty in explaining because of the metaphorical signals that it's swamped in
But i recognise symbolism when I see it....

For the last 'enemy' to be any danger to The Lord, it would have to be a living spirit, which has the ability to lead sheep astray, or keep goats from ever being turned into sheep; the implication is that death and hell, in addition to being what they are or what we understand them as (we do have limited information only about both) they are spirits who will be punished eternally, just as Satan will, as well as all those whose names are not written in The Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[Stripe]

Stipe - I can only give you the answers as to how I see them, its important to me to try and live a good life and feel worthy of calling myself a Christian, not for selfish reasons but because I believe its what God wants me to do,

I don't really mind what reasons you give for living a Godly life, though I'd prefer it if you were actually aware of what you believed enough to describe what's going on for you. If you're doing what's right then I can have no complaint, but when you insist that others should live Godly lives without believing as they do you have no rational grounds to do so when you do not know what you believe.

As to your question....again who knows? If God decided that the world wasnt really worth saving then I would doubt that he would have gone ahead and created it in the first place, if the world did still exist and was in a fallen state and Jesus wasnt sent then I suspect the world would be worse than what it is now, life here would be worse and then just death......thats just my opinion on that and i could well be wrong, thankfully its pretty moot anyway.....

My question is very specific. You should really understand quite clearly why it is necessary for Jesus to have saved us. The best way to ram the truth home is to imagine life without salvation. What happens to people when Jesus has not saved them Red?

 

[red77]

I don't really mind what reasons you give for living a Godly life, though I'd prefer it if you were actually aware of what you believed enough to describe what's going on for you. If you're doing what's right then I can have no complaint, but when you insist that others should live Godly lives without believing as they do you have no rational grounds to do so when you do not know what you believe.

But I do know what I believe....! I believe that God will reconcile everyone unto himself, that is my faith, i believe God accomplishes his will and at some point in time everyone will have a knowledge of the truth. I dont 'insist' that everyone shares the same, as long as there's human beings on this plane there'll be different opinions/beliefs/differences, my reply to your earlier question about why things matter in this life in how we treat others if all are eventually reconciled was to explain that our actions towards and interactions with others should be important regardless of the outcome, Jesus himself taught how to love our neighbour several times, the parable of the good samaritan for example....

My question is very specific. You should really understand quite clearly why it is necessary for Jesus to have saved us. The best way to ram the truth home is to imagine life without salvation. What happens to people when Jesus has not saved them Red?

and I do, from our own sinful nature and death - and to bring us life, if there was no salvation then there would be no hope, what you seem to be driving at (and correct me if I'm wrong) is what of those who dont find salvation in this existence, well, my answer is this: They are still saved by Jesus....Jesus's sacrifice was for all and covers all, if you want me to say what I think would happen to anyone who wasnt saved in your example of God not sacrificing his son then i believe that We would all have an utterly miserable experience in this world - and would then die after a pointless life and then die and cease to exist......although like i also said earlier i cant imagine why God would go to the trouble of creating this world in the first place, is this anywhere nearer answering your question?

 

[red77]

by the way Stipe the thumb down icon in that last post was an accident......!

 

[red77]

For the last 'enemy' to be any danger to The Lord, it would have to be a living spirit, which has the ability to lead sheep astray, or keep goats from ever being turned into sheep; the implication is that death and hell, in addition to being what they are or what we understand them as (we do have limited information only about both) they are spirits who will be punished eternally, just as Satan will, as well as all those whose names are not written in The Lamb's Book of Life.

Oh c'mon, death is a living spirit? this is really getting very strange.......death is the enemy because its what happens to all of us, and all living things in creation in this world, its not a sentient lifeforce! Does this being carry a scythe and wear a black cloak?

 

[CabinetMaker]

by the way Stipe the thumb down icon in that last post was an accident......!

Good morning Red77, How are you today? You never got around to addressing my question I asked you yesterday about denying what Jesus said in Mathew. You have had the night to think about it so would you like to take a shot at it today? Thanks!

By the way, for a long portion of human history death has been portrayed as the Grim Reaper. Could it be that that personafication is cast into the lake of fire?

 

[red77]

:think:

“FOREVER AND EVER” OR “INTO THE AGE OF THE AGES”?

Further distorting of the Scripture found in the false teaching of Universalism is found in the English translation of the Greek phrase: “eis tous aionas ton aionon” (“Forever and Ever” or “Forevermore”)

In their mad rush to redefine Scripture and remove the doctrine of eternal damnation, Many false teachers shoot themselves in the foot! (OUCH! THAT WAS MY FOOT MARV!)

The following are 18 verses in Scripture that contain this statement:"eis tous aionas ton aionon”

Revelation 19:3
3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!”

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Galatians 1:5
5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Philippians 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise,be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Timothy 4:18
18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

Hebrews 13:21
21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 4:11
11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelation 4:9-10
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

Revelation 5:13
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Revelation 7:12
12 saying:“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Revelation 10:6
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,

Revelation 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Revelation 15:7
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

Revelation 22:5
5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

It is blatantly clear that rendering these verses "Into the Age of the Ages" destroys the true meaning of them!!

It's no wonder the false systems of belief of Universalism and Annihilationism have worked so hard to try to change the meanings of these words. They utterly destroy both of those doctrines!

Firstly it doesnt make sense to have 'forever' followed by an 'ever', you cant have an eternity followed by another eternity, I remember Logos explaining this in the battle royale, you can have an age followed by an age......
Why is it that when there is a perfectly acceptable word which translates directly as eternal (aidios) it isnt used in ANY of the verses regarding punishment?!

There's been a comprehensive list of scholars given who have defined aion as its closest translation to mean 'age'...and plenty of those arent promoting universalism so there's no agenda at hand, why do you discount them?

Oh - and finally -look at Rev 5:13......please explain how it is that EVERY creature in God's world here and beyond give praise to God, are some of these doing it from a pit of endless burning fire? Or about to be thrown in it? Or are they giving praise willingly to the God who reconciles all and who works everything out within the counsel of his will?

 

[red77]

Good morning Red77, How are you today? You never got around to addressing my question I asked you yesterday about denying what Jesus said in Mathew. You have had the night to think about it so would you like to take a shot at it today? Thanks!

By the way, for a long portion of human history death has been portrayed as the Grim Reaper. Could it be that that personafication is cast into the lake of fire?

CM, I have already answered this question if its the post I believe you're referring to about denying Jesus words, I dont say people dont experience the LOF, just not a literal endless one, if its another post then please quote the post number as I've scrolled back the last few pages and cant see it

As for the grim reaper you're right, its a 'human' symbolic portrayal of death, I doubt you'd find many of whatever belief they ascribe to who think that death is a living spirit....its certainly the first time I've encountered that idea even amongst those who believe in ET.......

 

[red77]

Took long enough.

some of these posts take a bit of time and effort, do you have anything to actually contribute?

 

[red77]

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

What does it mean to testify Red?

To give evidence to the truth of something, I have no argument, Paul would be preaching the good news, what does it mean for something to be testified to?

 

[Aimiel]

Oh c'mon, death is a living spirit? this is really getting very strange.......death is the enemy because its what happens to all of us, and all living things in creation in this world, its not a sentient lifeforce! Does this being carry a scythe and wear a black cloak?

I don't see any other reason to consider it an enemy. We consider disease an enemy, since it is a living creature which medicine will try to find a way to combat, but we don't consider automobile accidents an enemy, I'm sure criminals don't consider prisons their enemies, but do think of those sent to minister to them by The Lord (police) their enemies. If you consider gravity your enemy (just a 'cause' which death might be considered as, if it weren't also a living spirit) then you're rare indeed, because none of us would be here if it weren't for gravity. Well, death is a state, or non-state of being, but it came to this earth in the fall. God didn't make men with a death-warrant, that was added by the enemy, who appointed a spirit to oversee its administration, and we've named that spirit: Death.

 

[Aimiel]

:think:

Firstly it doesnt make sense to have 'forever' followed by an 'ever', you cant have an eternity followed by another eternity, I remember Logos explaining this in the battle royale, you can have an age followed by an age...

I've always thought of the translation, "for ever and ever," as being like an echo effect, used in commercials, when they want to stress a point. Hey, it's a really long time to be tormented, pay attention here, don't wanna' go there, wouldn't be prudent. Hello, McFly!!!

 

[CabinetMaker]

CM, I have already answered this question if its the post I believe you're referring to about denying Jesus words, I dont say people dont experience the LOF, just not a literal endless one, if its another post then please quote the post number as I've scrolled back the last few pages and cant see it

I never said anything about duration. I pointed out that you deny Christ's words when you say

I dont believe hell to be literal, its detroyed along with death in the LOF which again can hardly bre literal,

CM, the LOF can hardly be taken literally, I dont deny the LOF - just not as a literal lake of fire, when a passage reads "then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" it smacks of symbolism, death isnt an object that can be cast anywhere and certainly not into a lake of any description, its an intangible......how would you explain this?

I would point out that with God all things are possible. The Bible is clear when it states that death is cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into. So if you believe that death being cast into the lake of fire is a symbol of death being destryoed, then you must also belive that those cast into the same lake are also destroyed in the same way death and hell were destroyed.

You can't have it both ways so which is it? Death, hell, the false profit, those he deceived into accepting his mark, the beast and those whos name are not in the book of life are all destroyed or not?

You believe death is destroyed (as do I). Death is destroyed (symbolicly) by being cast into the lake of fire. But hell, the faluse profit and those he deceived and those with there names not in the book of life are cast into the same lake. If the lake of fire symbolizes destruction for death, what does it symbolize for the other things that are cast into the same lake? If it means something different, can you explain why this symbol has different meanings for different things cast into it? Can you offer some biblical support for the different meanings?

I don't realy believe it either. It was one of those odd thoughts that happen from time to time.