BRXII Battle talk

[Lighthouse]

If someone forces another into a place or a state of suffering then does that person become a torturer? This is like saying a killer doesnt kill someone - its the knife or the gun..........

God does not force anyone apart form Him. They choose that, for it is not His will that they be separated, but theirs.

I also dont believe in literal fire, but can you account for how others do? The pastor seems to believe the fire is literal as do many more, who is right.....or is it just another element of inconsistency on this topic?

There is literal fire in the LoF, but not in hell.

My grammar is just fine, I dont write on here as though I'm submitting an essay in an exam.....my point is that in the next plane politics of the like we have in human society will be a thing of the past

No it isn't.

and if you believe politics has a part to play in 'justice' then I dont,

That is gramattically wrong. It is not an "if, then" statement. My belief does not cause your belief. And of course what we have now will be past. There won't be any wickedness.

why do you believe it to be more just? The pastor thinks its perfect and holy justice for people to be in agony forever so why do you disagree?

The same reason I believe the death penalty to be more just than imprisonment. I also think that destruction of wickedness makes more sense than keeping it locked away.

I believe what the verse says, if the ransom is for all and its to be testified to then at some point in time all will be ransomed, what do you believe it means and how can the ransom be testified to if all are not in fact ransomed? If that was the case the verse wouldnt say to be testified to in due time....

The ransom can be testified without all accepting the ransom. It doesn't say all will be ransomed in due time. All it says is that Christ's payment of the reansom will be testified in due time.

And the point is that all WILL accept the benefits - once they have a knowledge of the truth

Prove it.

Well I dont believe that God will force his will on anyone either, I just happen to believe that God can accomplish what he desires and all men will be saved and find the truth....

How will they find it?

 

[Stripe]

I believe that by that point everything will have been paid for

How do we pay for our sins?

 

[red77]

God does not force anyone apart form Him. They choose that, for it is not His will that they be separated, but theirs.

So everyone walks into hell of their own free will then? They arent coerced in any way? These people actually want to be separated from God? You think that people in the here and now actually KNOW that they're choosing to reject God and not searching for answers to existence?

There is literal fire in the LoF, but not in hell.

How is death destroyed by literal fire? And why do many people believe the fire to be symbolic?

No it isn't.

That is gramattically wrong. It is not an "if, then" statement. My belief does not cause your belief. And of course what we have now will be past. There won't be any wickedness.

Look LH we can all nitpick on someones grammar errors or spelling mistakes, sometimes this place should be called 'Teaching on line' there's that many English professors kicking around........

The same reason I believe the death penalty to be more just than imprisonment. I also think that destruction of wickedness makes more sense than keeping it locked away.

Well what reasons do you have to think its more just than the pastor's take?

The ransom can be testified without all accepting the ransom. It doesn't say all will be ransomed in due time. All it says is that Christ's payment of the reansom will be testified in due time.

If the ransom was paid for at the Cross why does it say it will be testified in due time - at a point in the future?

Prove it.

God declares it, I believe it

How will they find it?

God will bring it to them

 

[red77]

How do we pay for our sins?

We'll often pay for them in this life, it would be suposition on my part but i can imagine that it would be our own guilt and conviction of what we've done wrong to others that would be punishment, if we live selfish lives while having faith and thinking we're 'saved' anyway and nothing really matters then we'll be accountable for that, even Christians face a judgement .....

 

[Stripe]

We'll often pay for them in this life, it would be suposition on my part but i can imagine that it would be our own guilt and conviction of what we've done wrong to others that would be punishment, if we live selfish lives while having faith and thinking we're 'saved' anyway and nothing really matters then we'll be accountable for that, even Christians face a judgement .....

And we face this judgement, but the penalty is always heaven? Or we face this punishment in heaven..?

 

[Aimiel]

So everyone walks into hell of their own free will then? They arent coerced in any way? These people actually want to be separated from God? You think that people in the here and now actually KNOW that they're choosing to reject God and not searching for answers to existence?

That's what The Word of God says...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[red77]

And we face this judgement, but the penalty is always heaven? Or we face this punishment in heaven..?

the penalty isnt Heaven, the penalty is facing up to our actions and the consequences they've had on others, doesnt it say that what is whispered in corridors will be proclaimed from the rooftops? everything will be made known and laid bare? I dont pretend to know how God would judge each individual, I trust his judgements in whatever manner will be fair and according to each person, even if I believe that all will be reconciled to God I believe those who show charity and love their fellow man according to the commandments will gain just reward, other than this I trust God to accomplish his will and whatever happens will be for the ultimate good.....

 

[Stripe]

And for those who haven't "done enough" to gain the reward?

 

[red77]

That's what The Word of God says...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Do you think that this verse applies to all people everywhere who arent Christian? Much of the actions described in this verse apply to many people including Christians.....and it actually says that "when they knew God", it also doesnt say that everyone knows they're in danger of eternal torment as you believe, if anyone knew for sure that their fate was as you describe do you honestly think that they wouldnt do something about it?

 

[red77]

And for those who haven't "done enough" to gain the reward?

As I've said only God can judge the hearts of men, we can be convicted of our own actions and we know enough to know whether we're being sincere or false in our belief and much of that I believe would be reflected in how we treat others in life, an act of kindness to another is reward in itself in the here and now

 

[Lighthouse]

So everyone walks into hell of their own free will then? They arent coerced in any way? These people actually want to be separated from God? You think that people in the here and now actually KNOW that they're choosing to reject God and not searching for answers to existence?

Yes. They are without excuse. Romans 1:20.

How is death destroyed by literal fire? And why do many people believe the fire to be symbolic?

How is it thrown into the lake of fire? As for the second question, I don't know.

Well what reasons do you have to think its more just than the pastor's take?

?

If the ransom was paid for at the Cross why does it say it will be testified in due time - at a point in the future?

The fact that He did it will be testified.

God declares it, I believe it

Where did He declare it?

God will bring it to them

How so? And do you honestly believe that no one will reject it?

 

[Aimiel]

Do you think that this verse applies to all people everywhere who arent Christian?

I believe that is what it says, explicitly.

Much of the actions described in this verse apply to many people including Christians... and it actually says that "when they knew God", it also doesnt say that everyone knows they're in danger of eternal torment as you believe, if anyone knew for sure that their fate was as you describe do you honestly think that they wouldnt do something about it?

Their fate is known to them, as The Word of God says, and the degree to which they then decide to deceive themselves is what determines how easily they're converted to The Gospel.

 

[red77]

Or maybe redfin meant we shouldn't use those errant translations at all and debate soley from our feeeeeelings ...

I missed this, and its such a strawman argument, do you think all universalists believe that God reconciles all because it sounds nice? Its rooted in scripture otherwise there'd be no point in ascribing to it and I'm sure Redfin/Logos/Kimberlyann and others here would tell you the same, do I deny that universal salvation sounds better than eternal torment? Hardly, but its not some 'false' comfort which leads me to believe it but rather God's declaration of what he wills, to say that people debate soley from their 'feeeeeeelings' is yet again condescending and groundless......

 

[red77]

I believe that is what it says, explicitly.Their fate is known to them, as The Word of God says, and the degree to which they then decide to deceive themselves is what determines how easily they're converted to The Gospel.

It does not say that their fate is to be fried forever in this passage does it? As human beings we're going to make mistakes and we can be guilty of much of the sinful behaviour outlined in the passage you quoted from - even as Christians.....some things can be impossible for man including his own salvation, I also happen to believe that God knows this as well as his ability to be deceived, after all - "all kinds of things are possible with God", why did Jesus answer the disciples with this remark after their shock at how man could be saved? :think:

 

[Inu Yasha]

Hey red! Are you gonna respond to Lighthouse?

 

[red77]

Yes. They are without excuse. Romans 1:20.

So like Aimiel you think that everyone knows for sure that God exists based on this passage?

How is it thrown into the lake of fire? As for the second question, I don't know.

Well how can death be picked up and thrown anywhere? Its intangible and could hardly be damaged by literal fire, you dont know why people dont believe the lake of fire to be literal? Because of the symbolism of death being 'thrown' in there? :think:

?

The pastor thinks that perfect and holy justice is served by people being tormented in fire forever, you seem to think its more just for people to be annihilated instead of eternally tormented, I was just asking you to explain how you see things differently than the pastor

The fact that He did it will be testified.

That was testified at the time, in this verse it says the ransom at the cross for all WILL be testified to......

Where did He declare it?

God is the saviour of all men especially of believers......
God wills all men to be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth....

How so? And do you honestly believe that no one will reject it?

God wills all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, how God would accomplish this is up to God, and yes - i honestly think that everyone with a knowledge of the truth in front of them would not reject it, every knee will bow and every tongue confess

 

[red77]

Hey red! Are you gonna respond to Lighthouse?

Hi, I just did

 

[Inu Yasha]

Took long enough.

 

[Aimiel]

It does not say that their fate is to be fried forever in this passage does it?

I find your colloquialism, "fried," in relation to the eternal fate of a fellow human being to be extremely distasteful, indeed blasphemous. You (or I) never mentioned someone being described as such in this passage, although the implication is there, isn't it?

As human beings we're going to make mistakes and we can be guilty of much of the sinful behaviour outlined in the passage you quoted from - even as Christians... some things can be impossible for man including his own salvation, I also happen to believe that God knows this as well as his ability to be deceived, after all - "all kinds of things are possible with God", why did Jesus answer the disciples with this remark after their shock at how man could be saved?

You really need to learn sentence structure. Let's see if I can answer you, even though you're not being very concise. All have sinned. Including all Christians. Only the 'saved' are saved, God doesn't ever say, "Ollie-ollie oxen free," anywhere in Scripture, even though you refuse to believe the Truth.

 

[PKevman]

If God is all in all then there can hardly be a place where people are separated from him in some manner can there

Unless God being all in all doesn't mean what Universalsim says it means.