BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

If everyone goes to heaven then Jesus died for nothing.

(this conversation) This conversation .. (is over) Is over!

He died for nothing? He died for everyone......

 

[red77]

I would point out that with God all things are possible. The Bible is clear when it states that death is cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into. So if you believe that death being cast into the lake of fire is a symbol of death being destryoed, then you must also belive that those cast into the same lake are also destroyed in the same way death and hell were destroyed.

If you believe that all things are possible for God then you must surely believe that its possible for God to accomplish what he wills, and with the LOF yes- obviously i take it symbolically because of the passage which says both hell and death are thrown in there, but no- i dont believe thats what happens to people, for a start how do you destroy something like death? You cant burn it to annihilate it - its an intangible that cant be physically touched or damaged....how is death destroyed? i have no idea.....all i know is that God declares it is the last enemy to be destroyed so I believe that, I cant for one moment think that the place is a literal lake of fire as it makes no sense in light of this, what happens to people in this symbolic place or realm? Again I dont know, all I do know is that it will be for God to accomplish his own will, that death, sin, pain and suffering will be no more.....
The fact is that noone really knows what happens with the LOF, its why there's so many conflicting ideas, many people believe the LOF to be total separation from God and not fire at all and yet thats supposition,

You can't have it both ways so which is it? Death, hell, the false profit, those he deceived into accepting his mark, the beast and those whos name are not in the book of life are all destroyed or not?

Well as i've said above death cant be destroyed by fire....

 

[red77]

Isn't it nice that no matter who throws caution to the wind, common sense still always applies?

Yep, and common sense dictates that torturing helpless beings for ever with no purpose attached except for the intent of causing untold suffering makes no common sense......

 

[CabinetMaker]

If you believe that all things are possible for God then you must surely believe that its possible for God to accomplish what he wills, and with the LOF yes- obviously i take it symbolically because of the passage which says both hell and death are thrown in there, but no- i dont believe thats what happens to people, for a start how do you destroy something like death? You cant burn it to annihilate it - its an intangible that cant be physically touched or damaged....how is death destroyed? i have no idea.....all i know is that God declares it is the last enemy to be destroyed so I believe that, I cant for one moment think that the place is a literal lake of fire as it makes no sense in light of this, what happens to people in this symbolic place or realm? Again I dont know, all I do know is that it will be for God to accomplish his own will, that death, sin, pain and suffering will be no more.....
The fact is that noone really knows what happens with the LOF, its why there's so many conflicting ideas, many people believe the LOF to be total separation from God and not fire at all and yet thats supposition,



Well as i've said above death cant be destroyed by fire....

I see. It seems that when verses, even whole chapters, of the Bible become inconvenient you just ignore them and say it just a sysmbol. This goes back to the other issue I have raised with you and you refuse to answer. Why do you deny the words of Jesus?

 

[red77]

I see. It seems that when verses, even whole chapters, of the Bible become inconvenient you just ignore them and say it just a sysmbol. This goes back to the other issue I have raised with you and you refuse to answer. Why do you deny the words of Jesus?

CM, by my answer i have not denied that people have their part in the LOF, so I have not denied any words! Now if you can interpret revelation accurately and know exactly what the whole chapter says then you're better than me, i do not, its the most symbolic book in the Bible and many theologians differ greatly on what the symbolism actually means as well as many i've encountered in forums and in the church....
Why Do you deny God's ability to accomplish his own will?

 

[Nineveh]

no effort to address the points, just a pointless attempt at a put down, its getting too predictable....

After repeating myself and others on this thread a bajillion times... what's left?

Still cant address the verse in question huh?

In English: I hate what I am reading so I will ignore it and complain endlessly about the point not being rebutted.

Well - you can take the discredit for trying to tie it in with a doctrine of eternal suffering for other people....

Um.. nope... did you need me to scratch out the part about the worm never dying too? I'm sure "never" means something else in your version.

the verse that says God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe

Jesus died to save us all, that does not mean all will repent and accept that gift. How many times do we need to go over this? Until I learn to wrench a single sentence out of context to support your doctrine? I'm still sticking with Jesus, John, and Paul.

 

[CabinetMaker]

CM, by my answer i have not denied that people have their part in the LOF, so I have not denied any words! Now if you can interpret revelation accurately and know exactly what the whole chapter says then you're better than me, i do not, its the most symbolic book in the Bible and many theologians differ greatly on what the symbolism actually means as well as many i've encountered in forums and in the church....
Why Do you deny God's ability to accomplish his own will?

I don't. I note that you see His will differently than I do. You say God will have everybody with Him no matter what, I view that is not supported by the Bible. I see God's will as there are two final destinations and we get to choose which one we want. All in all does not mean all in the same place.

 

[Stripe]

He died for nothing? He died for everyone......

You're unblocked Red. Perhaps my leap of faith will bear some fruit.

You should be able to answer these two questions in a few words or less.

Why did Jesus die?

What would happen to us all if he hadn't died?

 

[logos_x]

Why did Jesus die?

To save us from sin and death

What would happen to us all if he hadn't died?

We would still be in sin and death would be the outcome.

Since He did die...that isn't the case.

 

[Stripe]

To save us from sin and death. We would still be in sin and death would be the outcome. Since He did die...that isn't the case.

Would you agree with Logos?

 

[Lighthouse]

My 'user info' says "more left than right", you might want to tell me what you believe hell to be if you think noone is tortured, plenty of folk here believe hell or the LOF to be literal burning fire including pastor Kevin.....

Literal fire or not [I believe it is, in the Lake of Fire*] is not the issue. The issue is whether or not someone is torturing those in the LoF. Even if they are tortured by the flame, no one is torturing them, the fire is. And, the biggest issue is not the fire, but the absence of God. And the torment suffered from that. And God does not do that to them, they do it to themselves.

*I do not believe that Hell is literal fire, because a soul/spirit cannot feel physical pain.

and if you believe politics has a part to play in 'justice' then I dont, its beyond politics, I believe in justice both here and afterward but not for political reasons.......

Your grammar needs work. And you also need a better understanding of politics. It is not necessarily politics playing a part in justice, rather justice should play a part in politics. Bad justice equals bad politics.

then what do you believe in?

I believe that eternal torment could very well be how it will be. However, I lean towards annihilationism, because I believe it is more just.

pretty simple, if Jesus died as a ransom for all to be testified to in due time i believe that, for some reason you dont........I'd like you to explain why

I do believe that. I was asking what you thought it meant that it would be testified in due time. Because you apparently believe it means that it will be testified for those who die, before they have no chances left. And that isn't what it means at all.

Also, for some reason, you can't see the obvious. Christ died, taking the punishment for all, yes. However, that must be accepted in order to receive the benefits of that. If one does not accept His death, then they must receive the penalty themselves.

Then you should have no problem believeing that God has all men to come to a knowledge of the truth as is his will......and once again, what exactly do you believe in then.....?

That is not what I said, nor is it what the verse says. It says that God does whatever He wills to do, for He has free will. It does not say that He forces His will on us. Espcially since it's against His will to do so.

 

[Lighthouse]

Can you back this up cogently?

Were you dropped on your head as a child?

If someone doesn't believe in justice, they don't believe in justice. Is that so hard to cpmprehend, that I have to come up with a cogent argument to prove it?

 

[logos_x]

A further question would be...what would've happened if man ate of the tree of life in a state of sin and death?

Would it not be the kind of "hell" that eternal torment proposes?

And...since God prevented our eating of that tree, does that not in effect prevent that kind of hell?...that is; the kind from which it is impossible to be saved from once you're in it.

 

[Lighthouse]

Both "combatants" are arguing from a mistaken premise.

The church long mistakenly has supposed that the same person or persons must continue suffering in Hell eternally, in order for Hell to continue existing eternally. Not so.

Recall that God's gathering of those who are saved unto Himself at the end of the age is likened unto a "wedding banquet," with Christ as the Bridegroom and the Church as His bride. Continue the analogy. After the wedding banquet, comes "consummation" of the marriage, and the result of that consummation is and shall be production of new life: the beginning of a new age of life, in a new "garden" in the midst of that "paradise" on earth into which the "bride" and "wedding guests" shall have been reborn in new bodies. Not until beyond those events shall souls, who continue faithful among those thus reborn, be further raised up as pure spirit with God in Heaven -- leaving the newly created souls of the new age to continue on upon the new earth. Among those new souls of that new age on that renewed earth, the old earth shall no longer be remembered. There were ages before this age, and there shall be ages beyond this age.

Each age of souls is like a separate class-year of students in a school. Some among us souls newly born within this age will progress and be drawn into a higher "grade" or "classroom" nearer to God at the end of this age; the more rebellious among us will be put down into Hell at the end of this age. Some students progress and advance; others regress and are put back.

When Satan briefly is released from Hell at the end of this age (Rev. 20:7), so also shall other souls imprisoned in Hell since prior ages, and briefly those preexisting souls shall have opportunity to repent and be drawn nearer to God. Likewise, at the end of the next age to come, those souls who shall have been put down into Hell at the end of this present age shall briefly be given a corresponding opportunity to repent and be drawn back nearer to God.

God is eternally loving and eternally patient; God equips those in Heaven to minister even to those in Hell; and the gates of Hell cannot bar or otherwise prevent Christ's and the Church Triumphant's ministry to souls in Hell (Matthew 16:18). Eventually -- I assert this as a matter of faith in God's love, rather than in denial of our free will -- all souls who are put down into Hell at the end of this present age shall be drawn back to God, but other souls from subsequent ages will still be there, because: God's creation of new life continues eternally, and among the new souls of each new age there inevitably will be some whose rebellion warrants their suffering the consequences of their sins in Hell, until eventually they at last repent and turn back to God. Hell is indeed eternal, but no one soul's presence there need also be eternal.

Thus saith the Lord!

Stephen Z. Surridge

Somebody needs to read a Bible. Those who were in hell are thrown into the lake of fire. And the new Earth is not inhabited by them. It's inhabited by the Bride of Christ, while the Body of Christ resides in Heaven.

 

[red77]

After repeating myself and others on this thread a bajillion times... what's left?



In English: I hate what I am reading so I will ignore it and complain endlessly about the point not being rebutted.



Um.. nope... did you need me to scratch out the part about the worm never dying too? I'm sure "never" means something else in your version.



Jesus died to save us all, that does not mean all will repent and accept that gift. How many times do we need to go over this? Until I learn to wrench a single sentence out of context to support your doctrine? I'm still sticking with Jesus, John, and Paul.

Then why do you even bother responding if you have nothing but meaningless remarks? I'll debate with anyone Nineveh but I cant be bothered when they're just evasive and resort to childish put downs instead of addressing the topic in hand, you still havent attempted to explain yourself the verse regarding God being the saviour of all men - and at least the pastor finally responded about his own analogy about the 'pyscho chef' and admitted that the analogy broke down, you couldnt address that at all, God says that he wills all men to be saved - no context necessary - that he is the saviour of all men especially of believers - how is that out of context? explain that if you can and then it might be worth while trying to debate with you, until then I'll stick with what God says myself....

 

[Aimiel]

I do not believe that Hell is literal fire, because a soul/spirit cannot feel physical pain.

When Jesus returned, visited the disciples, and cooked them a meal, He would have felt pain, had he put His Hand in the fire. He felt the earth, because He had to, to be able to walk on it. Haven't you ever been to the dentist and gotten a shot of novacaine? If you were numb all over, would you be able to even stand up? The fact that we (beneath the spirit realm, not above it) cannot see spirits doesn't make them any less than us. Those who are in Heaven have greater senses than we could imagine in our current form. Just because there is no sin, illness or pain in Heaven doesn't mean there isn't any in hell. There's more pain in hell than in the earth. Anyone in the second death (hell) would gladly trade his current condition for the 'living' person suffering the worst the earth has to offer; it would be a vacation, to say the least.

 

[Lighthouse]

When Jesus returned, visited the disciples, and cooked them a meal, He would have felt pain, had he put His Hand in the fire. He felt the earth, because He had to, to be able to walk on it. Haven't you ever been to the dentist and gotten a shot of novacaine? If you were numb all over, would you be able to even stand up? The fact that we (beneath the spirit realm, not above it) cannot see spirits doesn't make them any less than us. Those who are in Heaven have greater senses than we could imagine in our current form. Just because there is no sin, illness or pain in Heaven doesn't mean there isn't any in hell. There's more pain in hell than in the earth. Anyone in the second death (hell) would gladly trade his current condition for the 'living' person suffering the worst the earth has to offer; it would be a vacation, to say the least.

Jesus had a physical body, Aimiel.

 

[logos_x]

Somebody needs to read a Bible. Those who were in hell are thrown into the lake of fire. And the new Earth is not inhabited by them. It's inhabited by the Bride of Christ, while the Body of Christ resides in Heaven.

And..the bride, even then, continues to issue the invitation:

"I am coming quickly; and My reward is with Me, that I may requite every man in accordance with what his conduct has been. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city.

The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.
(compare with the ones thrown into the lake of fire)

"I Jesus have sent My angel for him solemnly to declare these things to you among the Churches. I am the Root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
(Rev 22:12-17)

I will conceed that unbelievers are unsaved until they believe...but at the same time I see no reason to think that they necessarily remain unbelievers.

My biggest issue with the eternal torment model is it places a "cutoff" at physical death for everything Christ died for. Eternal torment insists upon it being the end of Grace...of Christ's ability to redeem. That just flies in the face of too much scripture to be true, especially those concerning the resurrection....and blatently against 1 Corinthians 15:12-28. If physical death is the cutoff point for salvation...then that particular passage of scripture is meaningless.

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus had a physical body, Aimiel.

So will we, Lighthouse: a glorified physical body. Jesus said to fear Him Who has the power to cast body and soul into hell, not spirit. The living spirit which Christians have isn't shared by un-believers. Their spirit is dead, because of sin.

 

[red77]

Literal fire or not I believe it is, in the Lake of F is not the issue. The issue is whether or not someone is torturing those in the LoF. Even if they are tortured by the flame, no one is torturing them, the fire is. And, the biggest issue is not the fire, but the absence of God. And the torment suffered from that. And God does not do that to them, they do it to themselves.
I do not believe that Hell is literal fire, because a soul/spirit cannot feel physical pain.

If someone forces another into a place or a state of suffering then does that person become a torturer? This is like saying a killer doesnt kill someone - its the knife or the gun..........

I also dont believe in literal fire, but can you account for how others do? The pastor seems to believe the fire is literal as do many more, who is right.....or is it just another element of inconsistency on this topic?

Your grammar needs work. And you also need a better understanding of politics. It is not necessarily politics playing a part in justice, rather justice should play a part in politics. Bad justice equals bad politics.

My grammar is just fine, I dont write on here as though I'm submitting an essay in an exam.....my point is that in the next plane politics of the like we have in human society will be a thing of the past

I believe that eternal torment could very well be how it will be. However, I lean towards annihilationism, because I believe it is more just.

why do you believe it to be more just? The pastor thinks its perfect and holy justice for people to be in agony forever so why do you disagree?

I do believe that. I was asking what you thought it meant that it would be testified in due time. Because you apparently believe it means that it will be testified for those who die, before they have no chances left. And that isn't what it means at all.

I believe what the verse says, if the ransom is for all and its to be testified to then at some point in time all will be ransomed, what do you believe it means and how can the ransom be testified to if all are not in fact ransomed? If that was the case the verse wouldnt say to be testified to in due time....

Also, for some reason, you can't see the obvious. Christ died, taking the punishment for all, yes. However, that must be accepted in order to receive the benefits of that. If one does not accept His death, then they must receive the penalty themselves.

And the point is that all WILL accept the benefits - once they have a knowledge of the truth

That is not what I said, nor is it what the verse says. It says that God does whatever He wills to do, for He has free will. It does not say that He forces His will on us. Espcially since it's against His will to do so.

Well I dont believe that God will force his will on anyone either, I just happen to believe that God can accomplish what he desires and all men will be saved and find the truth....