BRXII Battle talk

[Redfin]

Aimiel, like PK you are failing to convince anyone in this discussion because you rely on merely citing disputable English translations and accusing those who disagree of disregarding Scripture, when the disputable translations are the heart of the issue. :think:

 

[logos_x]

Is that after the second death in Rev 20? They are raised to judgment and then are saved?

If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world. But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep. For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead. For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again. But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power. For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:19-28)

Paul's "end" here is what?

 

[Lighthouse]

Universalism doesnt make a mockery of anything, nor does it take sin or its consequences lightly either, this rant about it attacking the nature of God doesnt even make sense, if God wills all to come to a knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all men - how is it "attacking" the nature of God to believe that he accomplishes both his mission and his will? If anything makes a mockery out of justice its the belief that billions of lost souls will suffer agonising pointless suffering for no reason whatsoever.......

Justice demands that punishment be meted out. And to believe there is no reason for people to be punished is idiocy of the greatest magnitude. Is it any wonder we call leftists godless perverts? You mock justice, by laughing in it's face, and demanding that it not be done. God's desire that we love Him freely outweighs His desire to save all mankind. He will not force anyone into Heaven. Yes, Jesus died as a ransom for all. But that doesn't stop men from killing themselves by denying His death and resurrection.

 

[Lighthouse]

Happy now, red?

 

[CabinetMaker]

I dont believe hell to be literal, its detroyed along with death in the LOF which again can hardly bre literal, what i do take literally is the passage that says the former things shall pass away, that suffering will be no more and every tear wiped away, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, all this along with God accomplishing his will from the outset says that eternal torment and a place where sin and death arent actually vanquished is ludicrous.....

Then you deny the words of Jesus the He spoke in Mathew 25. What happens to the souls that are cast into the lake of fire ALONG WITH DEATH?

Mathew25:41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelations 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[rehcjam]

If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world. But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep. For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead. For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again. But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power. For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:19-28)

Paul's "end" here is what?

But even death will be cast into the lake of fire.
It still sounds like universalism, at least to my understanding.
What about or what do you think about inclusivism or pluralism?

 

[red77]

Justice demands that punishment be meted out. And to believe there is no reason for people to be punished is idiocy of the greatest magnitude. Is it any wonder we call leftists godless perverts? You mock justice, by laughing in it's face, and demanding that it not be done. God's desire that we love Him freely outweighs His desire to save all mankind. He will not force anyone into Heaven. Yes, Jesus died as a ransom for all. But that doesn't stop men from killing themselves by denying His death and resurrection.

Well for a start noone says that punishment isnt meted out....., but its done with purposeful intent and not sadistic torture for the sake of it which serves no purpose at all, if you're calling me a 'leftist' then you're being ignorant, I dont affiliate myself with any wing and in matters of this subject political affiliations are irrelevant anyway........

You claim to love 'justice' by demanding that God tortures all those who didnt believe the right thing for eternity by the constraints of your own doctrine which limits God......and as usual with this sickening doctrine its always OTHER PEOPLE who deserve to suffer agony and never those who believe in ET themselves.

You believe that Jesus died as a ransom for all but that it cant be testified to in due time - care to explain that?
and please show me the verse that says that God's desire to love him freely outweighs his desire to save all mankind......who are you to say that God's desire is outweighed by anything? I guess lke everyone else who believes in ET you reckon God cant accomplish his own will - even though God apparently works all things out to the purpose of his will........

 

[red77]

Happy now, red?

Hardly although I'm not surprised......

 

[Nineveh]

Hardly one verse Nineveh, one of very many....

That no doubt needs a bit of twisting.

how....? You believe that all men will not be reconciled to God, that many many people will be lost and tormented in fire for ever, does that not about sum it up?

Does "anyone" mean people or something else in the context of, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." If it means people, then that place where they go is described with, "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever". So it comes down to trying to comfort your mind because you can't deal with some folks not really wanting to be with God, or simply reading His Word and taking it for what it says. Sorry, but I have to go with option B on this.

It says what it says....if it was just this life ...

Once again, in context without a doctrine to prove... Paul is telling us we have hope of bodily resurrection. It's sad you miss out on this profound hope in favor of a little false comfort.

If eternal destiny rests upon the shoulders of human beings then hope is gone quite frankly,

For those who refuse to humble themselves and accept the work Christ has done for them. Have you ever wondered why God thought it so important that Christ spill His blood to save us out of the lake of fire? Why Christ Himself thought it was so imperative He not only told us what the lake was like He wanted us to get out there and spread the Word?

Like I say i believe that all men once they come to the truth...

Well.... if we wanna talk personal beliefs here instead of Scripture, then... I believe every time you comfort a sinner in their sin because you firmly deny God's Righteous Judgements, you lead folks away from the Cross, not to it.

 

[red77]

Then you deny the words of Jesus the He spoke in Mathew 25. What happens to the souls that are cast into the lake of fire ALONG WITH DEATH?

Mathew25:41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelations 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I dont deny anything! Hell and death are destroyed in the LOF, and there's been more than enough talk about 'eternal' and 'aion' that you seem to want to insist means 'forever'....
you deny the words of Jesus if you claim that his ransom to be testified to in due time actually wont be.......or that all things are possible with God including working things out to the purpose of his will........

 

[Lighthouse]

Well for a start noone says that punishment isnt meted out....., but its done with purposeful intent and not sadistic torture for the sake of it which serves no purpose at all, if you're calling me a 'leftist' then you're being ignorant, I dont affiliate myself with any wing and in matters of this subject political affiliations are irrelevant anyway........

Your user info says otherwise. And nobody is torturing anyone in hell. Except maybe themselves. And politics has everything to do with justice, since the government should execute justice, here on earth. And one who believes there is no justice after this, doesn't beleive in it now, either.

You claim to love 'justice' by demanding that God tortures all those who didnt believe the right thing for eternity by the constraints of your own doctrine which limits God......and as usual with this sickening doctrine its always OTHER PEOPLE who deserve to suffer agony and never those who believe in ET themselves.

I don't believe that God tortures anyone. Nor do I actually believe in ET.

You believe that Jesus died as a ransom for all but that it cant be testified to in due time - care to explain that?

Huh?

and please show me the verse that says that God's desire to love him freely outweighs his desire to save all mankind......who are you to say that God's desire is outweighed by anything? I guess lke everyone else who believes in ET you reckon God cant accomplish his own will - even though God apparently works all things out to the purpose of his will........

God works all things as He wills to work them, or "according to His will." I see no problm with that. And, once again, I do not believe in ET.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I dont deny anything! Hell and death are destroyed in the LOF, and there's been more than enough talk about 'eternal' and 'aion' that you seem to want to insist means 'forever'....
you deny the words of Jesus if you claim that his ransom to be testified to in due time actually wont be.......or that all things are possible with God including working things out to the purpose of his will........

I never said anything about duration. I pointed out that you deny Christ's words when you say

I dont believe hell to be literal, its detroyed along with death in the LOF which again can hardly bre literal,

I pointed out what Jesus says about the lake of fire and you ignor it. So I'll say it again, do deny the existance of the lake of fire and say that people are not sent there is to deny the very words of Jesus. Note: The duration is immaterial to this discussion. Here are the verses again for you to review.

Mathew25
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelations 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[red77]

That no doubt needs a bit of twisting.

Hardly, God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, who needs to twist that? Jesus died as a ransom for all to be testified in due time, again - no twisting necessary, all things are possible with God - hmmm, still no twisting necessary.......

Does "anyone" mean people or something else in the context of, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." If it means people, then that place where they go is described with, "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever". So it comes down to trying to comfort your mind because you can't deal with some folks not really wanting to be with God, or simply reading His Word and taking it for what it says. Sorry, but I have to go with option B on this.

Go with option B if you will, you're wrong, I can read God's word aqnd take it for what it says quite easily, lets see......God is the saviour of all men especially of those that believe for example

Once again, in context without a doctrine to prove... Paul is telling us we have hope of bodily resurrection. It's sad you miss out on this profound hope in favor of a little false comfort.

not really, I believe God accomplishes his own will, hardly 'false' comfort You on the other hand seem to think that profound hope exeists only for a minority of creation....including yourself

For those who refuse to humble themselves and accept the work Christ has done for them. Have you ever wondered why God thought it so important that Christ spill His blood to save us out of the lake of fire? Why Christ Himself thought it was so imperative He not only told us what the lake was like He wanted us to get out there and spread the Word?

Oh do tell me what the lake of fire is? Is it a literal lake or is it symbolic?

Well.... if we wanna talk personal beliefs here instead of Scripture, then... I believe every time you comfort a sinner in their sin because you firmly deny God's Righteous Judgements, you lead folks away from the Cross, not to it.

i'm still waiting for you to address a piece of scripture which you seem to have every intention of avoiding answering, when you can get around to telling me that God is in fact not the saviour of all men especially of believers let me know.......

 

[red77]

Your user info says otherwise. And nobody is torturing anyone in hell. Except maybe themselves. And politics has everything to do with justice, since the government should execute justice, here on earth. And one who believes there is no justice after this, doesn't beleive in it now, either.

My 'user info' says "more left than right", you might want to tell me what you believe hell to be if you think noone is tortured, plenty of folk here believe hell or the LOF to be literal burning fire including pastor Kevin.....
and if you believe politics has a part to play in 'justice' then I dont, its beyond politics, I believe in justice both here and afterward but not for political reasons.......

I don't believe that God tortures anyone. Nor do I actually believe in ET.

then what do you believe in?

Huh?

pretty simple, if Jesus died as a ransom for all to be testified to in due time i believe that, for some reason you dont........I'd like you to explain why

God works all things as He wills to work them, or "according to His will." I see no problm with that. And, once again, I do not believe in ET.

Then you should have no problem believeing that God has all men to come to a knowledge of the truth as is his will......and once again, what exactly do you believe in then.....?

 

[red77]

I never said anything about duration. I pointed out that you deny Christ's words when you say

I dont believe hell to be literal, its detroyed along with death in the LOF which again can hardly bre literal,

I pointed out what Jesus says about the lake of fire and you ignor it. So I'll say it again, do deny the existance of the lake of fire and say that people are not sent there is to deny the very words of Jesus. Note: The duration is immaterial to this discussion. Here are the verses again for you to review.

Mathew25
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelations 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

CM, the LOF can hardly be taken literally, I dont deny the LOF - just not as a literal lake of fire, when a passage reads "then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" it smacks of symbolism, death isnt an object that can be cast anywhere and certainly not into a lake of any description, its an intangible......how would you explain this?

 

[CabinetMaker]

I never said anything about duration. I pointed out that you deny Christ's words when you say

I dont believe hell to be literal, its detroyed along with death in the LOF which again can hardly bre literal,

CM, the LOF can hardly be taken literally, I dont deny the LOF - just not as a literal lake of fire, when a passage reads "then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" it smacks of symbolism, death isnt an object that can be cast anywhere and certainly not into a lake of any description, its an intangible......how would you explain this?

I would point out that with God all things are possible. The Bible is clear when it states that death is cast into the same lake of fire that those whos names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into. So if you believe that death being cast into the lake of fire is a symbol of death being destryoed, then you must also belive that those cast into the same lake are also destroyed in the same way death and hell were destroyed.

You can't have it both ways so which is it? Death, hell, the false profit, those he deceived into accepting his mark, the beast and those whos name are not in the book of life are all destroyed or not?

 

[PKevman]

Aimiel, like PK you are failing to convince anyone in this discussion because you rely on merely citing disputable English translations and accusing those who disagree of disregarding Scripture, when the disputable translations are the heart of the issue. :think:

Why are the translations of Universalists NOT disputable?

 

[PKevman]

In order to accept the translations that Universalists use, you must do away with the vast majority of reputable Greek scholars. All of this just to avoid admitting that the doctrine of Universal Salvation has so many flaws in it when compared to the Scriptures that one must deny Scriptures that CLEARLY and IRREFUTABLY destroy Universalism and try to justify it by taking isolated verses and phrases out of context. And then when they are shown that those verses don't mean what they claim when they are taken in context, they either refuse to concede that their interpretation might be wrong, or they repeatedly say the same things over and over again. (See Red's posts for examples).

The Bible speaks plainly about the destination of those who are not in Christ. It is very much a matter of accepting God at His Word or finding loopholes around God's Word.

 

[PKevman]

Those who embrace eternal torment, in effect, are saying, to hell with the resurrection, take my word, hell is eternal and death is undefeatable. (you live forever in torment)

The righteous are resurrected to eternal life. The wicked to eternal death. Eternal death is unending death or eternal life is not unending life. It is really that simple.

 

[red77]

In order to accept the translations that Universalists use, you must do away with the vast majority of reputable Greek scholars. All of this just to avoid admitting that the doctrine of Universal Salvation has so many flaws in it when compared to the Scriptures that one must deny Scriptures that CLEARLY and IRREFUTABLY destroy Universalism and try to justify it by taking isolated verses and phrases out of context. And then when they are shown that those verses don't mean what they claim when they are taken in context, they either refuse to concede that their interpretation might be wrong, or they repeatedly say the same things over and over again. (See Red's posts for examples).

The Bible speaks plainly about the destination of those who are not in Christ. It is very much a matter of accepting God at His Word or finding loopholes around God's Word.

Firstly pastor.......happy new year!
Secondly, if I use a handful of many verses right now its because people seem to have great difficulty in explaining just those few - at least to tie in with their doctrines of ET, many many passages have been put on various threads and at length,

Universalism or universal salvation hasn't been destroyed at all, how do you explain God not being able to accomplish his own will? The biggest problem you have is telling how exactly God is incapable of fulfilling his own plan, if God works all things out within the purpose of his will and he wills all men to find the truth then who are you or anyone else to decree otherwise? Like it or not you limit God's will and power by this belief that God tortures the majority of his creation, you seem incapable of recognising symbolism regarding the LOF and will go to any lengths to distort scriptures that plainly speak of God restoring all to himself aka God being the saviour of all men especially of believers, these verses cannot be taken out of context....! All things are possible with God -true or false? not in ET, there's no way around that, by ET God cannot accomplish his will even though he declares that he can and all things arent apparently possible.......there's just a whole world of hideous pointless pain for billions which serves no purpose at all except in the apparent 'justice' of it for those who wont experience it.....

Oh and btw, I would still like you to explain to me the whole psycho chef thing too and how God would apparently be a psycho for 'forcing' his creation to himself (which isnt part of universalism anyway) but not one for burning them in fire for eternity........