BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

pretty simple, if Jesus died as a ransom for all to be testified to in due time i believe that, for some reason you dont........I'd like you to explain why

Red did you read the explanation of this given by me in the Battle Royale? If so would you care to comment on it?

 

[PKevman]

Firstly pastor.......happy new year!

Happy New Year to you as well!

Secondly, if I use a handful of many verses right now its because people seem to have great difficulty in explaining just those few

I have explained them at length many times over including in the Battle Royale AND I have shown Biblically how they could not possibly mean what Universalism says they mean. If you would respond directly to things that were said during the Battle Royale, then maybe we could have an intelligent dialogue about it, instead of dancing around in circles. When you are shown that those verses do not mean what Universalism claims they mean, you refuse to accept the answer or deny an answer was given when it clearly was. I have seen this over and over again. It isn't a personal attack, Red, just an observation of mine in regards to your debate tactics.

Universalism or universal salvation hasn't been destroyed at all,

-Please list the Bible verse that clearly shows that anyone who is cast into the Lake of Fire gets out.
-Please list the Bible verse that clearly shows anyone whose name is NOT found written in the Book of Life on the Day of Judgment will then get their name written BACK into the Book of Life at some point in the future.
-Please cite the verse in Scripture that plainly shows fallen angels and Satan repenting of their sins and being allowed into Heaven.
-Please explain Scripturally, how the sins of Satan and the fallen angels are paid for.
Is Satan an angel or a man? Please give a clear definition of what Satan is. If he is an angel, then how did Christ the God-Man pay for the penalties for an angel? Or maybe you deny that Satan is a fallen angel?
-Please explain WHY the Bible says those not written in the Book of Life, Satan, the fallen angels, the Beast, the False Prophet, and those who worship the Beast and take his mark are tormented in the Lake of Fire forever and ever?
-Please give your definition of torment.
-Please give your definition of forever.

how do you explain God not being able to accomplish his own will?

-Red, does man have free will? Does he make his own choices? Yes or no.
-Can man refuse to do what God wants him to do? Yes or no.

The biggest problem you have is telling how exactly God is incapable of fulfilling his own plan, if God works all things out within the purpose of his will and he wills all men to find the truth then who are you or anyone else to decree otherwise?

God reveals Himself well enough through His own Word, the Bible.
-Red: Is the Bible the Word of God? yes or no.

Like it or not you limit God's will and power by this belief that God tortures the majority of his creation,

I do? How could I, mere man, limit the power of God? That is a ridiculous statement sir.
How can you say that people can REFUSE God's payment for their sins through the death of His own Son, Jesus Christ, the holy and DIVINE Son of God, and STILL get to go to Heaven?

these verses cannot be taken out of context....!

They are and they have. And you have done it. And you have been shown many times that you have done it. But you refuse to hear.

All things are possible with God -true or false?

I don't normally like to answer a question with a question. But is it possible for God to be a liar? Is it possible for Him to be a child molester? Is it possible?

not in ET, there's no way around that, by ET God cannot accomplish his will even though he declares that he can and all things arent apparently possible

Red what if it is God's will to judge sinners for their sin by sending them to the Lake of Fire for all eternity? Can He accomplish that if it is His will?

.......there's just a whole world of hideous pointless pain for billions which serves no purpose at all

The purpose is to fulfill the righteous and perfect anger of a just and Holy God who cannot have sin in His presence. Sin leads to separation from God. Until sins are covered up, nobody can approach God. The blood of Christ covers those sins, but only those who ACCEPT THE COVERING OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST ARE COVERED. Those who do not humble themselves and accept God's sacrifice are without hope.

except in the apparent 'justice' of it for those who wont experience it

This is a sad and oft-repeated argument by Universalists to make those who accept what the Bible says about unbelievers spending eternity in the Lake of Fire to appear to be "bad guys". We aren't bad guys. I love the Lord with all of my heart,and seek to be obedient to Him and to His Word. I DESERVE TO DIE AND GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY FOR MY SINS. It is JUSTICE for ME to pay for my own sins. It was LOVE that led the Son of God to die for my sins and the sins of anyone who will believe.

Oh and btw, I would still like you to explain to me the whole psycho chef thing too and how God would apparently be a psycho for 'forcing' his creation to himself (which isnt part of universalism anyway) but not one for burning them in fire for eternity........

The illustration was to make a point. All illustrations break down at some point, as they are only designed to illustrate a point. The point I was making in the illustration is that God doesn't violate the free will of men by MAKING them accept a gift. A gift that is forced is not a gift. I think that is pretty self-explanatory.

God bless and have a good night.

 

[PKevman]

Aimiel, like PK you are failing to convince anyone

Have you seen the results of the poll for Battle Royale XII? I would say it would be a lie to say PK didn't convince anyone.

 

[PKevman]

And if anyone was convinced I would just say praise God, because it is all to His glory.

 

[icilian fenner]

And one who believes there is no justice after this, doesn't beleive in it now, either.

Can you back this up cogently?

 

[Stephen986]

Both "combatants" are arguing from a mistaken premise.

The church long mistakenly has supposed that the same person or persons must continue suffering in Hell eternally, in order for Hell to continue existing eternally. Not so.

Recall that God's gathering of those who are saved unto Himself at the end of the age is likened unto a "wedding banquet," with Christ as the Bridegroom and the Church as His bride. Continue the analogy. After the wedding banquet, comes "consummation" of the marriage, and the result of that consummation is and shall be production of new life: the beginning of a new age of life, in a new "garden" in the midst of that "paradise" on earth into which the "bride" and "wedding guests" shall have been reborn in new bodies. Not until beyond those events shall souls, who continue faithful among those thus reborn, be further raised up as pure spirit with God in Heaven -- leaving the newly created souls of the new age to continue on upon the new earth. Among those new souls of that new age on that renewed earth, the old earth shall no longer be remembered.

Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. Isaiah 65:17

There were ages before this age, and there shall be ages beyond this age.

Each age of souls is like a separate class-year of students in a school. Some among us souls newly born within this age will progress and be drawn into a higher "grade" or "classroom" nearer to God at the end of this age; the more rebellious among us will be put down into Hell at the end of this age. Some students progress and advance; others regress and are put back.

When Satan briefly is released from Hell at the end of this age (Rev. 20:7), so also shall other souls imprisoned in Hell since prior ages, and briefly those preexisting souls shall have opportunity to repent and be drawn nearer to God. Likewise, at the end of the next age to come, those souls who shall have been put down into Hell at the end of this present age shall briefly be given a corresponding opportunity to repent and be drawn back nearer to God.

God is eternally loving and eternally patient; God equips those in Heaven to minister even to those in Hell; and the gates of Hell cannot bar or otherwise prevent Christ's and the Church Triumphant's ministry to souls in Hell (Matthew 16:18). Eventually -- I assert this as a matter of faith in God's love, rather than in denial of our free will -- all souls who are put down into Hell at the end of this present age shall be drawn back to God, but other souls from subsequent ages will still be there, because: God's creation of new life continues eternally, and among the new souls of each new age there inevitably will be some whose rebellion warrants their suffering the consequences of their sins in Hell, until eventually they at last repent and turn back to God. Hell is indeed eternal, but no one soul's presence there need also be eternal.

Thus saith the Lord!

Stephen Z. Surridge

 

[Redfin]

Why are the translations of Universalists NOT disputable?

All of the translations are disputable.

That was the point I was making, and which the Eternal Tormenters consistently disregard.

 

[Redfin]

The Bible speaks plainly about the destination of those who are not in Christ.

Universalists agree completely with you about the destination of those not in Christ.

That is a strawman issue.

The real issue is when the option of getting in Christ ends.

It is very much a matter of accepting God at His Word or finding loopholes around God's Word.

We're back to the dispute over translations, which you've again, consistently, disregarded. (see above post)

 

[Redfin]

The righteous are resurrected to eternal life. The wicked to eternal death. Eternal death is unending death or eternal life is not unending life. It is really that simple.

Is it?

If it is that simple, why do you fail to recognize (or acknowledge) that the Universalist argument says that unending life is not predicated on the word you translate "eternal," but on another word? :think:

 

[Redfin]

Aimiel, like PK you are failing to convince anyone

I would say it would be a lie to say PK didn't convince anyone.

And I say that it would be shameful to have to cut someone off in mid-sentence to try to score a point.

Aimiel, like PK you are failing to convince anyone in this discussion...

I was referring to the then present discussion, in case that's still not clear.

The ones Aimiel was not convincing, had not been convinced by you either, and for similar reasons.

The ones agreeing with Aimiel had not been convinced by him, but had already held "Eternal Torment Is Right And Good" views.

 

[PKevman]

Is it?

If it is that simple, why do you fail to recognize (or acknowledge) that the Universalist argument says that unending life is not predicated on the word you translate "eternal," but on another word? :think:

:bang:

 

[red77]

Happy New Year to you as well!

I have explained them at length many times over including in the Battle Royale AND I have shown Biblically how they could not possibly mean what Universalism says they mean. If you would respond directly to things that were said during the Battle Royale, then maybe we could have an intelligent dialogue about it, instead of dancing around in circles. When you are shown that those verses do not mean what Universalism claims they mean, you refuse to accept the answer or deny an answer was given when it clearly was. I have seen this over and over again. It isn't a personal attack, Red, just an observation of mine in regards to your debate tactics.

By the same token pastor repeating that you have shown clearly that these verses cant say what they mean doesnt make it true, this isnt a personal attack on you either pastor but your debating style often seems to revolve around the idea that whatever you state in these issues is fact and that anyone who disagrees is denying truth....not so....I've yet to see evidence that these verses cant possibly mean just what they indicate - but rather contexturalising them to fir the pre patterned scripts of the ET doctrine, something which I've already heard a thousand times before in my former church where even they couldnt agree among each other what ET actually was.......

-Please list the Bible verse that clearly shows that anyone who is cast into the Lake of Fire gets out.
-Please list the Bible verse that clearly shows anyone whose name is NOT found written in the Book of Life on the Day of Judgment will then get their name written BACK into the Book of Life at some point in the future.
-Please cite the verse in Scripture that plainly shows fallen angels and Satan repenting of their sins and being allowed into Heaven.
-Please explain Scripturally, how the sins of Satan and the fallen angels are paid for.
Is Satan an angel or a man? Please give a clear definition of what Satan is. If he is an angel, then how did Christ the God-Man pay for the penalties for an angel? Or maybe you deny that Satan is a fallen angel?
-Please explain WHY the Bible says those not written in the Book of Life, Satan, the fallen angels, the Beast, the False Prophet, and those who worship the Beast and take his mark are tormented in the Lake of Fire forever and ever?
-Please give your definition of torment.
-Please give your definition of forever.

firstly pastor I dont see the LOF as a literal lake of fire, its blatant symbolism negates that which you seem to ignore for some reason along with pretty much most if not all of revelation, your one major argument for God not being able to restore all to himself seems to rest on there being no verse that says people dont leave the LOF, Logos X did a far better job of explaining the significance of all this but until you even accede the possibility of the lOF being something quite different from a fiery pit I doubt there'd be any point in having dialogue over this, the fact that it decrees that God will be ALL in ALL and the last enemey to be destroyed is death (presumably in the LOF) says it all
My definition of forever would be just that - forever, aion doesnt translate as 'forever'
As for satan I find a lot of descriptions allegorical, I dont believe he manifested as a literal snake in the garden of Eden for example, I dont take the book of Genesis literally either, I thnk you do but thats fodder for another thread.....

-Red, does man have free will? Does he make his own choices? Yes or no.
-Can man refuse to do what God wants him to do? Yes or no.

Man has free will to a certain extent, I dont believe there's such a thing as absolute free will because of other factors such as upbringing and environment etc, but to keep this simple then I do believe that man has the free will to make choices, and yes - man can refuse to do what god wants him to do, after all - we all still sin whoever we are

God reveals Himself well enough through His own Word, the Bible.
-Red: Is the Bible the Word of God? yes or no.

Yes, no argument here although I dont believe the scriptures we have today are inerrant,

I do? How could I, mere man, limit the power of God? That is a ridiculous statement sir.
How can you say that people can REFUSE God's payment for their sins through the death of His own Son, Jesus Christ, the holy and DIVINE Son of God, and STILL get to go to Heaven?

By ascribing to a doctrine that from the outset claims that God cannot accomplish his own will or desire, by asociation you limit the power of God by doing so.
And still you have a misconception about universalism or universal salvation, once people have a knowledge of the truth every knee will bow and every tongue confess, noone 'gets' into heaven without acknowledging the sacrifice....

They are and they have. And you have done it. And you have been shown many times that you have done it. But you refuse to hear.

And you have your own brick wall set in place that prevents you from seeing these verses for what they say, I agree that this is going to go around in circles, apart from anything else pastor I've seen the 'other' side of the fence in this topic and the arguments for ET while in the church for 2 years, you arent saying anything thats not been said before and you would be in agreement with several in this particular church and not with several others, inconsistency abounds in ET because of the total lack of clarity in the doctrine.....
The verses themselves in question are clear in their own right

I don't normally like to answer a question with a question. But is it possible for God to be a liar? Is it possible for Him to be a child molester? Is it possible?

Perhaps the best translation of this is that ll kinds of things are possible with God, obviously I wouldnt think it possible for God to be evil, however - this answer was given in direct answer to the disciples shocked question about who could be saved.....so it can hardly be taken 'out of context' to presume that one of the many things possible for God is to save all mankind........or is that not possible for God?

Red what if it is God's will to judge sinners for their sin by sending them to the Lake of Fire for all eternity? Can He accomplish that if it is His will?

It already states that this is not God's will but rather the opposite, God 'wills' all men to come to a knowledge of the truth.....can he accomplish this if it is his will?

The purpose is to fulfill the righteous and perfect anger of a just and Holy God who cannot have sin in His presence. Sin leads to separation from God. Until sins are covered up, nobody can approach God. The blood of Christ covers those sins, but only those who ACCEPT THE COVERING OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST ARE COVERED. Those who do not humble themselves and accept God's sacrifice are without hope.

Herein lies another problem - God is love, he has a multitude of tender mercies, yet his anger in this doctrine outweighs his love, his wrath outweighs his mercy....
One day every knee will bow and every tongue confess - and I believe willingly......

This is a sad and oft-repeated argument by Universalists to make those who accept what the Bible says about unbelievers spending eternity in the Lake of Fire to appear to be "bad guys". We aren't bad guys. I love the Lord with all of my heart,and seek to be obedient to Him and to His Word. I DESERVE TO DIE AND GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY FOR MY SINS. It is JUSTICE for ME to pay for my own sins. It was LOVE that led the Son of God to die for my sins and the sins of anyone who will believe.

Its oft repeated because its true, I dont think of you as the 'bad guys' but its a constant in this doctrine, noone who believes in hell and calls it justice ever thinks they will be on the receiving end of agonising torture......
Mercy triumphs over judgement, supposing that its God holy and perfect will that desires mercy and not sacrifice?

The illustration was to make a point. All illustrations break down at some point, as they are only designed to illustrate a point. The point I was making in the illustration is that God doesn't violate the free will of men by MAKING them accept a gift. A gift that is forced is not a gift. I think that is pretty self-explanatory.

God bless and have a good night.

Well I had to pick you up on it pastor because the analogy breaks down at the start, you still labor under the misapprehension that God forces men against their own free will in universalism which is not the case......this has already been explained several times, and obviously its pretty ludicrous to say that God would be psychotic to force a gift on someone anyway and yet not for roasting them in endless fire for eternity...!

Blessings and a Good day to you pastor

 

[CabinetMaker]

Goodmorning Red,

I'm still waiting for your reply.

I never said anything about duration. I pointed out that you deny Christ's words when you say

I dont believe hell to be literal, its detroyed along with death in the LOF which again can hardly bre literal,

I pointed out what Jesus says about the lake of fire and you ignor it. So I'll say it again, do deny the existance of the lake of fire and say that people are not sent there is to deny the very words of Jesus. Note: The duration is immaterial to this discussion. Here are the verses again for you to review.

Mathew25
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelations 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Aimiel]

Can that smoke ascend forever, without them being there? As in, annihilationism.

I don't see how. The smoke is described as 'smoke of their torment,' and wouldn't exist if they didn't. They are tormented, as The Word of God says, day and night, forever.

 

[Aimiel]

Aimiel, like PK you are failing to convince anyone in this discussion because you rely on merely citing disputable English translations and accusing those who disagree of disregarding Scripture, when the disputable translations are the heart of the issue. :think:

The indisputable truth is evident in the Holy Scriptures, but your casting doubt upon it has no effect other than to display your disdain of truth.

 

[Nineveh]

Hardly, God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, who needs to twist that?

: Jeapordy Music : ummmm... Who is, red77! : / Jeapordy Music :

Jesus died as a ransom for all to be testified in due time, again - no twisting necessary, all things are possible with God - hmmm, still no twisting necessary.......

Well, shoot... I'm going to have to rip out John and Paul and replace it with The Book of Red77. Oh... and I'll have to scratch out all that pesky stuff Jesus said, too.

Go with option B if you will, you're wrong

Ok, so "anyone" doesn't mean anyone, and "forever" doesn't mean forever. : scribbles out anyone and forever : So what would you like me to pencil in?

I can read God's word aqnd take it for what it says quite easily, lets see......God is the saviour of all men especially of those that believe for example

Well.... except for "anyone" and "forever"... oh... and John talking about all those folks who don't believe in Jesus being condemned already... and a few other minor things... like the rest of the Bible depicting God as Just and Holy.

not really, I believe God accomplishes his own will, hardly 'false' comfort You on the other hand seem to think that profound hope exeists only for a minority of creation....including yourself

Well, I really can't take credit for that whole "narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." thing. Do I need to scratch that part out too?

Oh do tell me what the lake of fire is? Is it a literal lake or is it symbolic?

Well, for you, I assume it's about the same thing as "anyone" and "forever"... whatever you classify those as.

 

[Nineveh]

Why are the translations of Universalists NOT disputable?

Or maybe redfin meant we shouldn't use those errant translations at all and debate soley from our feeeeeelings ...

 

[Aimiel]

Isn't it nice that no matter who throws caution to the wind, common sense still always applies?

 

[Stripe]

If everyone goes to heaven then Jesus died for nothing.

(this conversation) This conversation .. (is over) Is over!

 

[red77]

: Jeapordy Music : ummmm... Who is, red77! : / Jeapordy Music :

This is just pathetic.....

Well, shoot... I'm going to have to rip out John and Paul and replace it with The Book of Red77. Oh... and I'll have to scratch out all that pesky stuff Jesus said, too.

Again, no effort to address the points, just a pointless attempt at a put down, its getting too predictable....

Ok, so "anyone" doesn't mean anyone, and "forever" doesn't mean forever. : scribbles out anyone and forever : So what would you like me to pencil in?

try aion

Well.... except for "anyone" and "forever"... oh... and John talking about all those folks who don't believe in Jesus being condemned already... and a few other minor things... like the rest of the Bible depicting God as Just and Holy.

Still cant address the verse in question huh? God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, and you're right that the Bible depicts God as just as holy,

Well, I really can't take credit for that whole "narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." thing. Do I need to scratch that part out too?

Well - you can take the discredit for trying to tie it in with a doctrine of eternal suffering for other people....

Well, for you, I assume it's about the same thing as "anyone" and "forever"... whatever you classify those as.

once you can get around to explaining why the verse that says God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe without the classic evasion and attempts at condescension then feel free to respond, otherwise this just a total waste of time, i might disagree with others on here but at least they debate the topic in hand without the need for it.....