BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

Christians don't 'embrace' eternal torment, we are the ones who oppose it.

:rotfl:

You are the ones that insist it is true.

Yes, Christians insist that God's Word is Truth, All of It!!! Too bad you've decided that you know better than God's Word does, and have decided you know God better than those who take Him at His Word. :think:

 

[logos_x]

Yes, Christians insist that God's Word is Truth, All of It!!! Too bad you've decided that you know better than God's Word does, and have decided you know God better than those who take Him at His Word. :think:

Amiel...I'm a Christiian...and yes, I insist that God's Word is the Truth, All of it!
I don't know better than God's Word, and I take Him at His Word.

Therefore, that is not the real issue.

I don't believe in an "eternal" hell because in the Hebrew and the Greek the Bible NEVER uses a word that must mean eternal when it describes punishments. And many, many scriptures are diametrically opposed to punishments that are not directed toward change and repentance and never accomplish anything except pain.

I think most people can recognize that and can see through your rhetoric...at least I hope so.

 

[Aimiel]

Amiel...I'm a Christiian...and yes, I insist that God's Word is the Truth, All of it!
I don't know better than God's Word, and I take Him at His Word.

Therefore, that is not the real issue.

Actually, it is. You profess being Christian, but don't embrace what Christ said, rather you embrace what your heap o' teachers tell your itching ears what they want to hear. If you belived Christ, you wouldn't have to ever quote anyone else, and those too numerous to mention, you'd simply quote Christ. He said that hell is real, eteranal and inescapable (without Him). To believe otherwise is a denial of Christ and His Word, and isn't Christianity, which is why what you believe is labeled: "Universalism." It might as well be labeled blasphemy, because for it to be true, God's Word has to be a lie, which It isn't. That isn't rhetorical, it is merley fact.

 

[logos_x]

Actually, it is. You profess being Christian, but don't embrace what Christ said, rather you embrace what your heap o' teachers tell your itching ears what they want to hear. If you belived Christ, you wouldn't have to ever quote anyone else, and those too numerous to mention, you'd simply quote Christ. He said that hell is real, eteranal and inescapable (without Him). To believe otherwise is a denial of Christ and His Word, and isn't Christianity, which is why what you believe is labeled: "Universalism." It might as well be labeled blasphemy, because for it to be true, God's Word has to be a lie, which It isn't. That isn't rhetorical, it is merley fact.

Well..that would be true if Jesus actually taught what you say He taught concerning hell.

He didn't...therefore this is not true.

 

[Lighthouse]

Aimiel-
Although I disagree with logos_x on this issue, he does not believe that anyone can get out of hell without Christ.

 

[rehcjam]

Amiel...I'm a Christiian...and yes, I insist that God's Word is the Truth, All of it!
I don't know better than God's Word, and I take Him at His Word.

Therefore, that is not the real issue.

I don't believe in an "eternal" hell because in the Hebrew and the Greek the Bible NEVER uses a word that must mean eternal when it describes punishments. And many, many scriptures are diametrically opposed to punishments that are not directed toward change and repentance and never accomplish anything except pain.

I think most people can recognize that and can see through your rhetoric...at least I hope so.

If a nonChristian is without hope, how is that not eternal unless they become a Christian?

 

[Lighthouse]

I mean that I disagree on universalism, not that Christ is the only chance anyone has for freedom.

 

[logos_x]

If a nonChristian is without hope, how is that not eternal unless they become a Christian?

They are without hope until they recieve grace and accept it.

 

[logos_x]

Aimiel-
Although I disagree with logos_x on this issue, he does not believe that anyone can get out of hell without Christ.

:thumb:

 

[rehcjam]

They are without hope until they recieve grace and accept it.

Even after death?

 

[logos_x]

Even after death?

yes

 

[logos_x]

Even after death?

More accurately...after raising from death.

 

[rehcjam]

yes

Is that universalism then?

Forgive me if youv'e already done this, which I'm sure you have, but I haven't gone through this thread or the BattleRoyal yet.

 

[red77]

Christians don't 'embrace' eternal torment, we are the ones who oppose it. Those who embrace it will tell you that no one is sent there, or, in other words: "You shall not surely die," the first lie, re-packaged, that is embracing Satan and passing out free tickets to hell. We simply take God's Word at face-value, as He meant for It to be taken.

Really? Well in that case you shouldnt have a problem taking at face value that God is the saviour of all men especially of believers then, or that Jesus died as a ransom for all to be testified in due time, and if God works all things out within the conformity of the purpose of his will and his will is that all men come to a knowledge of the truth then that should be pretty straightforward too......

 

[Aimiel]

Really?

Yes, really; and, if you're Christian, you shouldn't have any trouble believing that those who end up in hell will have the smoke of their torment ascend forever.

 

[rehcjam]

More accurately...after raising from death.

Is that after the second death in Rev 20? They are raised to judgment and then are saved?

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes, really; and, if you're Christian, you shouldn't have any trouble believing that those who end up in hell will have the smoke of their torment ascend forever.

Can that smoke ascend forever, without them being there? As in, annihilationism.

 

[logos_x]

Is that universalism then?

Forgive me if youv'e already done this, which I'm sure you have, but I haven't gone through this thread or the BattleRoyal yet.

No. It isn't "universalism". It is universal salvation or universal reconciliation.
There is a very salient difference. The emphasis should be on salvation and reconciliatiion through Christ and His complete victory over sin and death.

I'm not a Unitarian...which I think is probably the main reason for misunderstanding. And I'm not a "universalist", which essentially does away with God's judgements.

If you read the Battle Royale, my argument is that "eternal torment" makes those judgements eternal and without any possibility to be saved simply because we die...that upon physical death judgement is final. I present evidence that this is a problematic theological position. Physical death derails God's grace and ability to redeem mankind...and the resurrection becomes the entrance into eternal torment for the vast majority of mankind...in the eternal torment model.

 

[logos_x]

Yes, really; and, if you're Christian, you shouldn't have any trouble believing that those who end up in hell will have the smoke of their torment ascend forever.

On the contrary, I think you should have plenty of trouble with it.

 

[red77]

What makes sense? A God who says what He means and means what He says. A God you can count on. God has said that when our earthly existance is over there are one of two places you can end up, an nice place and a not nice place. He has plainly stated how to pick the one you will go to.

of course it makes sense that God says what he means, its why I believe that his will isnt thwarted by his creations, I believe that God means he is the saviour of all men, a ransom that will be testified in due time, that all things are possible for God and that he can accomplish his own will in having all men come to a knowledge of the truth, your doctrine doesnt allow God to achieve what he declares, does it not say that God works all things out within the conformity of the purpose of his will?

No consider this about inversalism. You claim that some body goes to hell for one age-during. There is nothing in the Bible that implies that any body who goes to hell will get out before thier one age-during is complete. Nor is there anything in the Bible that says what happens after that age-during.

I dont believe hell to be literal, its detroyed along with death in the LOF which again can hardly bre literal, what i do take literally is the passage that says the former things shall pass away, that suffering will be no more and every tear wiped away, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, all this along with God accomplishing his will from the outset says that eternal torment and a place where sin and death arent actually vanquished is ludicrous.....