BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Red what is it that unbelievers, the beast, the false prophet, Satan, and the fallen angels are cast into? If you believe it is not a literal lake of fire that they are cast into what are they cast into Red? You cannot be cast into something that is symbolic. Or is the casting symbolic as well? Are they NOT really cast into anything?

 

[PKevman]

TAKE THE UNIVERSALISM CHALLENGE:

Universalists fall flat on their faces trying to defend their doctrine Biblically. This is because the doctrine of Unviersalism is NOT Biblical.

-Please list the Bible verse that clearly shows that anyone who is cast into the Lake of Fire gets out.
-Please list the Bible verse that clearly shows anyone whose name is NOT found written in the Book of Life on the Day of Judgment will then get their name written BACK into the Book of Life at some point in the future.
-Please cite the verse in Scripture that plainly shows fallen angels and Satan repenting of their sins and being allowed into Heaven.
-Please explain Scripturally, how the sins of Satan and the fallen angels are paid for.
Is Satan an angel or a man? Please give a clear definition of what Satan is. If he is an angel, then how did Christ the God-Man pay for the penalties for an angel? Or maybe you deny that Satan is a fallen angel?
-Please explain WHY the Bible says those not written in the Book of Life, Satan, the fallen angels, the Beast, the False Prophet, and those who worship the Beast and take his mark are tormented in the Lake of Fire forever and ever?
-Please explain WHY Universalist "scholars" are to be trusted over the vast majority of Greek scholars who utterly refute their translations of the words that ARE IN FACT translated eternal and everlasting.
-Please quantify why the Hebrew word Olam (as used in Daniel 12:2) does NOT mean everlasting.

 

[PKevman]

Universalism=Wisdom of men
Holy Bible=Wisdom of God

 

[PKevman]

Matthew 10:41,46

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Daniel 12:2

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

This verse incidentally destroys universalism AND annihilationism as well by one simple phrase:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

No rest day or night: Universalism makes a big claim that their doctrine is Scriptural because modern Bibles have been mistranslated when they use words like eternal and everlasting. How about THIS phrase, "No rest day or night".

It actually correlates with Revelation 20:10

Revelation 20:10

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It is clear that there is passage of time in the Lake of Fire and that those there are cognizant and realize day and night is passing and that they are in torment forever and ever.

Here is what Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance has to say in regards to Aioniosand note I am pasting my own argument from the Battle Royale for those reading if this sounds familiar)

“Eternal, long ago:-eternal, Everlasting, world began(combined with Chronos), forever, since world began.”

Dr. Vine says this in his excellent Expository Dictionary: Aionios “Describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25;2 Tim. 1:9;Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26 and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
These are just two solid scholars’ views, but there are many others that would concur with the translations of Dr. Vine and Dr. Strong.

 

[PKevman]

A round 2 Battle Royale point that was never answered

A round 2 Battle Royale point that was never answered

“FOREVER AND EVER” OR “INTO THE AGE OF THE AGES”?

Further distorting of the Scripture found in the false teaching of Universalism is found in the English translation of the Greek phrase: “eis tous aionas ton aionon” (“Forever and Ever” or “Forevermore”)

In their mad rush to redefine Scripture and remove the doctrine of eternal damnation, Many false teachers shoot themselves in the foot! (OUCH! THAT WAS MY FOOT MARV!)

The following are 18 verses in Scripture that contain this statement:"eis tous aionas ton aionon”

Revelation 19:3
3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!”

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Galatians 1:5
5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Philippians 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise,be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Timothy 4:18
18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

Hebrews 13:21
21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 4:11
11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelation 4:9-10
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

Revelation 5:13
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Revelation 7:12
12 saying:“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Revelation 10:6
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,

Revelation 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Revelation 15:7
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

Revelation 22:5
5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

It is blatantly clear that rendering these verses "Into the Age of the Ages" destroys the true meaning of them!!

It's no wonder the false systems of belief of Universalism and Annihilationism have worked so hard to try to change the meanings of these words. They utterly destroy both of those doctrines!

 

[PKevman]

Say Red, as long as you are saying that eternal torment is NOT a Biblical doctrine because different Christians believe differen things, then let's see if your logic holds through when it involves YOUR OWN beliefs:

Logos believes the Lake of Fire is a literal fire. You don't believe it is a literal fire. Can YOU explain why YOUR doctrines on the subject of the Lake of Fire are different? And to use your OWN analogies, how can Universalism be true if so?

(Remember I am not saying that this is what makes Universalism false teaching, I am simply showing you how your own logic doesn't work)

Universalism is false teaching because the Word of God condemns it as such. You cannot condemn what the Bible says about unbelievers spending eternity in the Lake of Fire with clear Scriptures, so you attempt to do it by pitting the beliefs of Christians against each other.

Here is a newsflash:

Many people are simply wrong in their interpretations of Scriptures. I am sure when the glorious Day comes and I stand before my Lord, there will be things that I will know and understand fully that I don't know or understand now. But the doctrine of the eternality of the Lake of Fire and God's judgments on wicked, UNREDEEMED sinners and the wicked UNREDEEMED fallen angels is NOT one of them.

Good day and God bless.

 

[PKevman]

I have a great friend who has a catchy phrase I really like:

"When two people agree 100% of the time, then only one of them is thinking."

I like that and it is true! Sometimes good and Godly people disagree on things. This hardly means we JUNK the whole Bible. It simply means we need to take more time and pray and study the Word of God more deeply.

 

[Nineveh]

Then why do you even bother responding if you have nothing but meaningless remarks?

It's not like I haven't tried to hold many discussions with you. But you just don't seem willing. Besides, it was your first post to me back on 409. So it's not like I came looking for another fruitless convo with you.

I'll debate with anyone Nineveh but I cant be bothered when they're just evasive and resort to childish put downs instead of addressing the topic in hand, you still havent attempted to explain yourself the verse regarding God being the saviour of all men - and at least the pastor finally responded about his own analogy about the 'pyscho chef' and admitted that the analogy broke down, you couldnt address that at all, God says that he wills all men to be saved - no context necessary - that he is the saviour of all men especially of believers - how is that out of context? explain that if you can and then it might be worth while trying to debate with you, until then I'll stick with what God says myself....

And again... another paragraph worth of red not liking the replies. :blabla:

I missed this, and its such a strawman argument, do you think all universalists believe that God reconciles all because it sounds nice? Its rooted in scripture otherwise there'd be no point in ascribing to it and I'm sure Redfin/Logos/Kimberlyann and others here would tell you the same, do I deny that universal salvation sounds better than eternal torment? Hardly, but its not some 'false' comfort which leads me to believe it but rather God's declaration of what he wills, to say that people debate soley from their 'feeeeeeelings' is yet again condescending and groundless......

It's obvious you have your docrtine and you are sticking with it. To be quite honest with you, I'd rather read a real answer to stipe's last question to you than continue another useless convo.

 

[Nineveh]

And for those who haven't "done enough" to gain the reward?

As I've said only God can judge the hearts of men, we can be convicted of our own actions and we know enough to know whether we're being sincere or false in our belief and much of that I believe would be reflected in how we treat others in life, an act of kindness to another is reward in itself in the here and now

This really isn't addressing stipe's question.

 

[logos_x]

I have a great friend who has a catchy phrase I really like:

"When two people agree 100% of the time, then only one of them is thinking."

I like that and it is true! Sometimes good and Godly people disagree on things. This hardly means we JUNK the whole Bible. It simply means we need to take more time and pray and study the Word of God more deeply.

:thumb:

Couldn't agree more!

 

[Stripe]

As I've said only God can judge the hearts of men, we can be convicted of our own actions and we know enough to know whether we're being sincere or false in our belief and much of that I believe would be reflected in how we treat others in life, an act of kindness to another is reward in itself in the here and now

If God hadn't sent Jesus what would happen to those who hadn't "done enough"?

 

[red77]

I find your colloquialism, "fried," in relation to the eternal fate of a fellow human being to be extremely distasteful, indeed blasphemous. You (or I) never mentioned someone being described as such in this passage, although the implication is there, isn't it?You really need to learn sentence structure. Let's see if I can answer you, even though you're not being very concise. All have sinned. Including all Christians. Only the 'saved' are saved, God doesn't ever say, "Ollie-ollie oxen free," anywhere in Scripture, even though you refuse to believe the Truth.

Well I'm not going to mince words on this subject, it amazes me that people who ascribe to the eternal suffering of fellow human beings get squeamish regarding the descriptions of the torment, 'roasted', 'fried' 'baked' are all pretty apt terms for the belief that people are burned forever in a literal endless fire.......

And as i've already pointed to Lighthouse I'm well aware of the abundance of English teachers on here......heck, we can all nitpick and pull somone up on a typo or grammar, I'm not trying to write an exam paper here so there's gonna be mistakes, I agree in that all have sinned, no argument, The bibe may not talk about "ollie Oliie" - whatever that actually means but it does say that even though all men die through Adam so all shall be made alive through Christ, unless yet again this soley applies to believers in this life and another case of "all" not being able to mean "all"..........

 

[red77]

Unless God being all in all doesn't mean what Universalsim says it means.

Then what exactly does "all in all" mean then - especially in realation to the passage it appears in? Is it yet another case of "all" not meaning "all" but some? God may be 'some in some'....? It speaks of the whole of creation does it not?

 

[red77]

Red what is it that unbelievers, the beast, the false prophet, Satan, and the fallen angels are cast into? If you believe it is not a literal lake of fire that they are cast into what are they cast into Red? You cannot be cast into something that is symbolic. Or is the casting symbolic as well? Are they NOT really cast into anything?

what is death cast into pastor? A literal fire? Can you please explain in basic terms how an intangible like death can be 'picked up' and then 'cast'.....into anything? Of course I see it as symbolic....! I cant honestly understand how it can make any sense to read it literally at all....! And as for the rest then I find it more than possible that people arent literally 'cast' into something much the same as death isnt......I dont pretend to understand revelation pastor, a lot of it I (and others in my experience) have had difficulty in explaining because of the metaphorical signals that it's swamped in
But i recognise symbolism when I see it....

 

[red77]

If God hadn't sent Jesus what would happen to those who hadn't "done enough"?

Stipe - I can only give you the answers as to how I see them, its important to me to try and live a good life and feel worthy of calling myself a Christian, not for selfish reasons but because I believe its what God wants me to do, what we do on this earth counts for much regardless of whatever branch we belong to, if we're truly Christian then loving our brothers and sisters and showing charity and spreading the good news is part of our lives - or at least thats how i see it and what I believe Jesus taught, I'm gonna mess things up at times and I'm still going to sin, but I believe that God knows that already

As to your question....again who knows? If God decided that the world wasnt really worth saving then I would doubt that he would have gone ahead and created it in the first place, if the world did still exist and was in a fallen state and Jesus wasnt sent then I suspect the world would be worse than what it is now, life here would be worse and then just death......thats just my opinion on that and i could well be wrong, thankfully its pretty moot anyway.....

 

[Lighthouse]

So like Aimiel you think that everyone knows for sure that God exists based on this passage?

They can outwardly deny it all they want, but they all know they're wrong.

Well how can death be picked up and thrown anywhere? Its intangible and could hardly be damaged by literal fire, you dont know why people dont believe the lake of fire to be literal? Because of the symbolism of death being 'thrown' in there? :think:

Death will be no more, at that time, though. And that's all that really matters.

The pastor thinks that perfect and holy justice is served by people being tormented in fire forever, you seem to think its more just for people to be annihilated instead of eternally tormented, I was just asking you to explain how you see things differently than the pastor

I'm not 100% percent on annihilationism though. ET coould be right. And I won't deny that.

That was testified at the time, in this verse it says the ransom at the cross for all WILL be testified to......

:bang:

God is the saviour of all men especially of believers......
God wills all men to be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth....

You're saying He forces us.

God wills all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, how God would accomplish this is up to God, and yes - i honestly think that everyone with a knowledge of the truth in front of them would not reject it, every knee will bow and every tongue confess

They can confes all they want. If God has decided that it's too late, then it's too late.

If you want to defnd your stance, use the Bible. If you're going to quote it, ell us what verse you're quoing.

 

[Redfin]

Last question. If my ultimate destination is certain regardless of my actions, why are my actions considered so vital?

This has probably already been answered, but as I see it, Christian Universalism teaches that our ultimate destination is based on our actions. (Qualifier - said actions are necessary but not sufficient, though.)

But since our actions are ultimately certain (belief leading to repentance, if not in this life then in the next), our ultimate destination becomes certain as a result.

 

[Redfin]

Another question. So we pay for our sins in heaven?

All sin has been paid for by Christ. It is only faith in His payment that will rescue anyone from hell, now and/or in eternity.

Good questions. Sorry if I'm repetitious. Trying to get caught up. :cheers:

 

[red77]

They can outwardly deny it all they want, but they all know they're wrong.

Well i 'll leave it to God to judge each person's heart on this one, he'll know better than any of us....

Death will be no more, at that time, though. And that's all that really matters.

That doesnt explain how you believe the LOF to be either literal or figurative, you should have reasons one way or the other

I'm not 100% percent on annihilationism though. ET coould be right. And I won't deny that.

but why are you veering towards annihilationism? What is your reasoning for believing it presently? The pastor thinks perfect justice is eternal torment, why dont you agree?

:bang:

how can I put this? If something is described as "will" be testified to then its the future tense, is that right? If the ransom was already paid at the cross then the word "will" would have no place in the verse, now can you explain why this is?

You're saying He forces us.

of course I'm not, is God not capable of accomplishing his will without force? What makes you think that anyone once they're made aware of the truth would want to deny it?

They can confes all they want. If God has decided that it's too late, then it's too late.

If you want to defnd your stance, use the Bible. If you're going to quote it, ell us what verse you're quoing.

And how do you know that God decrees that its too late? do you think the confession is 'forced'? On the one hand you think its wrong for God to force people to see the truth but not to make people confess? I think you're well aware that these verses are from the Bible, I dont always have time to quote each verse while on breaks at work.............!

 

[Redfin]

And we face this judgement, but the penalty is always heaven? Or we face this punishment in heaven..?

All will be judged.

Those who already have Christ's righteousness will go to heaven.

Those who do not will be punished by hell until they turn to Christ.