he died for everyone, he came to save the world, the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, i believe he can be 100% sucessful in his mission, to accomplish all that he wills including restoring the entirety of his own creation, I wont stop believing that God can achieve his will even if you think that he cannot.....
BRXII Battle talk
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he died for everyone, he came to save the world, the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, i believe he can be 100% sucessful in his mission, to accomplish all that he wills including restoring the entirety of his own creation, I wont stop believing that God can achieve his will even if you think that he cannot.....
Nineveh
Merely Christian
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
"...anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
People question it for other reasons than their own fear of experiencing it
I wrote a paragraph on not just fear but the debilitating fear that ET can instill, people can still fear God without having eternal agony thrust in their face, and btw - perfect love casts out fear.....
God says he is the saviour of the world, I just happen to believe that he is, so its up to you if you think that God is 'right' on that one....
All of us didnt believe at one point unless you were born a believer?
And the lake of fire has been under debate for this entire thread, its pataently obvious that its metaphor as Logos has already amptly demonstrated and is neither eternal
Yes, and most probably wont find it in this one life, either way this passage mentions nothing about eternal torment and is only construed as such by those who cling onto it.....
Nineveh
Merely Christian
People come up with all sorts of reasons to reject Christ. Those who have repented and accepted Him as Lord do not fear the second death and try to lead others to Christ so they too can be saved.
That fear saved me. It lead me straight to Christ. His perfect Love not only cast out that healthy fear, but washed away my sins and baptised me into the Body.
God does not say He will force people to love Him. The Bible is witness against you that most of the world throughout most of history has rejected Him. He testifies to that fact, whether you agree or not.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
And none of this bluster proves God forces people to repent and obey Him.
None of your own bluster can prevent God from achieving his own will and being 100% sucessful in restoring all that he creates, I 've never said that God would 'force' anyone to repent either, neither has anyone else as far as I'm aware....
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Even when the Word is quoted to you that God states the exact opposite do you realize you are exercising that very freewill to disagree with Him about it. Just like others do when they reject Him.
People are fallible and we arent perfect, God seems to know this when he answered his disciples regarding the salvation of people...
Then it was love that worked within you and not fear ultimately, I've noticed that fear itself can only hold power for so long...
I dont believe that God will force people to love him either, rather that when people all come to the truth they will do so willingly, 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess' - unless you believe that to be 'forced'...
I'm sorry you cant believe that God himself can accomplish his will, I dont disagree that God is the saviour of the world and I'm sorry that the word when quoted to you is not enough to believe that he can restore his own handiwork....
I see you still cling to the gospel of the great deceiver.
You cling to a 'gospel' of darkness, pain and despair, if you'd sooner believe that God is a tormentor of billions of souls and that hopelessness and blinding agony is the message behind the 'good news' of a deity then go ahead, if you want to decieve yourself into believing that God cannot restore all that he creates then go ahead, if you want to deceive yourself into thinking that God cant be sucessful in what he sets out to do then go ahead, ET is singlehandedly the most alienating and destructive doctrine there is, it goes against all values of love,compassion and mercy, the very attributes that make up God's character, carry on as you will, once the brick wall of doctrine is set up its rare for those to be able to break it down unfortunately.....
You ignore the other values that make up God. His jealousy, His wrath, His vengence. These are also part of God that cannot deny.
As for me, I have the Gospel of Christ. The Gospel that teaches there is an eternal hell whether I agree with it or not. The Gospel that teaches God has a plan to save you from that eternal fate. The Gospel of the Christ that assures me that when God pours out His wrath (read Revelations if you doubt God is wrathful and vengeful) I wil be covered by Christs blood.
It is the universalist that focuses on hell, not the believer of eternal torment. You cannot witness without talking the fear of God out of your message. We can witness that God has so much more for you in His kingdom, that God's love is about far more than avaoiding hell. Of course, we are not afraid to show people that their choices do have a consequence. Eternal hell may open their ears to what the Bible has to say. It did mine. And the moment it did, hell lost all its threat. I fear it no more.
I dont ignore the passages that speak of God's wrath, I dont deny there would be punishmen and accountability - but I do not believe that they override God's main characteristic which is love, God is love, the punishment will have a means to an end for this to be true, love does not torment with no purpose - no hope - no end to meaningless and unuterrable despair, if that were the case then god would not be love but anger, there is no reason to ET, it accomplishes absolutely nothing...
i have read revelation - and despite being almost impossible to understand most of it - the wrath is poured out in all sorts of metaphors upon the earth, not in an endless hell or fiery lake unless you somehow believe all that to be literal and still ignore the original texts that dont even have eternal as the original translations....
You believe in orthodox teaching of hell which even the ascribers to it have no end of difficulty in agreeing to what the conditions are, for something so important its shrouded in confusion,
If the believer in eternal torment doesnt focus on hell primarily then I'm surprised quite frankly, it would surely be the one main reason for preaching the message wouldnt it? Its all very well to talk about the benefits of God's kingdom but that fades into insignificance in comparison to eternal intolerable suffering.....which is sad because if you realised just how counter productive and alienating the doctrine actually is you may very well reach many many more people, noone can comprehend eternity in any form and not many would find it 'good news' that a God exists and that he's going to fry most of his creation, like i said in my earlier post, people have loved ones,families,wives/husbands/sposes, most people have lost someone close to them and this message wouldnt bring anyone any hope as has been evidenced in earlier discussions on other threads...
Its a message that goes beyond sickening and beyond any acts of barbarism that any man could inflict on another no matter how warped and evil that person could actually be, and yet this is God we're talking about, a God who is love.....go figure
What said in this sentence is exactly backwards. It is the lie of Satan that universalism embraces. Compared to God's kingdom, hell fades away into insignificant. You have no idea what the Gospel is because you are so focused on hell that you do everything in your power to change what the Bible says.
The Bible says what the lake of fire is, when it is created and who will go there, though not by name. It is there. It is umcomfortable and scary to comtgemplate but it is there. Not all truth is easy to live with but it is still true.
It's ET that makes it impossible for the sentence to read anything other than what it says, you cannot use the term 'eternal suffering' and insignificant in the same sentence - and I'm focussed on the subject here because its what this very thread is about! I dont need to change what the Bible says, its written all through the word as Logos X pointed a few pages ago, the good news that shall be to ALL people, Gods multitude of tender mercies, his will to see all men come to a knowledge of the truth, Its all there if you could look with eyes that arent blinded to what you stubbornly maintain is the 'truth'. I'm sorry you believe in a God whose love is outweighed by his anger and who senslessly torments his own helpless creations for an eternity,
You place such limits on God that make it impossible for him to accomplish what he wills because it would go against your 'truth'.....
I will try one more time. God says:
Matthew 7 said:
Note that the speaker of these words is Jesus Himself. Since Jesus is God, we can know that the words He used were exactly the right words to convey exactly what He meant. Would you agree? Then note that the wide gate leads to destruction, not punishment, and many will enter through it.
God said what He meant and meant what He said. These are the words of God, not a greek scholar or a theologin. They are not my words, they are God's words.
When you say that God will not send people to the lake of fire you call God a liar. Are you comfortable with that? Again, the speaker in this verse is Jesus, God incarnate. Again, we can trust that the meaning of this verse is clear because God spoke them and God always chooses the words to convey exactly what he means.
Matthew 25 said:
logos_x
New member
I, too, will try again
Matthew 7:13 does NOT say anything about eternal torment...
You are right...the words He used were exactly the right words to convey exactly what He meant. He was not talking about what you think He was here...He was refering to the Kingdom Age. Not all are chosen for that kingdom, not even eventually.
He did NOT use English. The langauges used were far more precise.
We are not talking about the Kingdom Age but rather of the vivification of all mankind (1 Cor. 15:23 and 24), which occurs long after the thousand-year kingdom has run its course.
The verse you quote in Matthew 25...
...STILL does not mention eternal torment, for devil or man.
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