Acually Aimiel Jesus said he died as a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time....
BRXII Battle talk
- Thread starter Poly
- Start date
- Status
Acually Aimiel Jesus said he died as a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time....
logos_x
New member
Yes, Jesus gave His soul as a ransom for many (Mt. 20:28)—speaking of the thousand-year kingdom—yet "He is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all" (see1 Tim. 2:6).
Your biggest stumbling block seems to be that you are confusing what Christ did and said concerning the thousand-year kingdom (the Israelite kingdom, when Israel will shepherd all the other nations), with what He will do with all mankind at the end of the ages....apparently. If you had this key, most of your objections would fall by the wayside in a heartbeat.
logos_x
New member
For the Jews whom Jesus was addressing...the Messianic Kingdom was of paramout importance..outstripping any talk about an afterlife. In fact, any "afterlife" was seen in connection with the resurrection from the dead...not merely death itself. Much of Jesus talk about "Gehenna" was understood to be in reference to being eliminated from participation in that future glorious Kingdom Age...as well as the imminent judgement coming upon Israel by being trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.
THIS age of judgement upon Israel will soon close, and will end fully when Christ returns.
Many will not be participants in that Kingdom Age, not being resurrected until it has run it's course.
People are judged in that resurrection whether they are in the Lamb's Book of Life. If not...they go into the second death, which defines what the lake of fire really is. This STILL is not the end, because death will be fully overthrown...and in the end it's whosoever will, let him come and drink.
This is why these Judgments are called "aionion"...not eternal.
THIS age of judgement upon Israel will soon close, and will end fully when Christ returns.
Many will not be participants in that Kingdom Age, not being resurrected until it has run it's course.
People are judged in that resurrection whether they are in the Lamb's Book of Life. If not...they go into the second death, which defines what the lake of fire really is. This STILL is not the end, because death will be fully overthrown...and in the end it's whosoever will, let him come and drink.
This is why these Judgments are called "aionion"...not eternal.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Oops, you forgot a couple verses which state otherwise:
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
If He meant to say, "all," why do you think He said, "many," repeatedly?
logos_x
New member
Does not "ALL" include the "MANY"?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Because Timothy said that Christ was given as a ransom for 'all' doesn't nullify the times that Christ said that He was given only for 'many' at all. One has to take the source of words into consideration, especially when imagining strange doctrine and trying to 'proof-text' it into reality. It's still your turn, please guess again.
logos_x
New member
I'm not guessing.
All does not nullify the many...however, many might nullify the all.
Do you believe in the Calvinistic "limited atonement"? If so, why do you think that "many" nullifies "all"?.. rather than the all including the many?
The "many" does not include "All".
logos_x
New member
...But the "all" includes the "many"!
logos_x
New member
So you choose yet again to ignore another Bible verse that was Spoken by Jesus so that you can negate what God has said about consequences so that you can feel better about what you want God to be.
Do not make the mistake of applying what the OT said about hell to the NT. The OT is about the Old Covenant. Its "hell" is different from the lake of fire.
Chrsit completed the Old Covenant and ushered in the NT. With the Old Covenant complete, so too are the punishments imputed under the Old Covenant. We are now under the New Covenant. Jesus's blood has been spilled for us. That changes everything. Jesus and the Apostles have explained to us what the New Covenant is. They have also explaind what the consequences of the New Covenant are, both good and bad. They are not the same as the Old.
logos_x
New member
You know...I really wonder if you even bother to think about what you are saying about God, sometimes.
God doen't bother to reveal to His chosen people that the end of His salvation will result in billions of people burning for eternity until just a mere 2000 years ago?
Jesus Christ changes things in such a way that eternal torment is even possible...by utilizing His resurrection to impose an eternal misery upon men?
You really need to smell what it is you are shoveling.
You really need to look at the verses that have been posted to you.
There are narrow and wide gates. The wide gate leads to DESTRUCTION and MANY will find it.
Jesus seperates the sheep from the goats and the goats go to the fire prepared for the devil and his servents.
Jesus was whipped and nailed to a cross to pay for our sins. Ever see the Passioni of the Christ? He was brutally tortured that we might have eternal life. He willingly did that so that we would have eternal life. What is he to do with the people who reject that kind of sacrifice?
logos_x
New member
I have read them...
the issue is...is this describing a condition that lasts FOREVER? If it does...then God will NEVER be all in all...while Paul, cleary, says that is what the end will be. Was Paul lying?
I don't think so.
Therefore...it simply CANNOT be eternally perpetual torment. People can still be saved by God's Grace...which never ends.
Confusing the process with the outcome has been the problem all along.
This would be a slam dunk for you if anyone in the Bible really said that punishment endures for an endless aion. Which is something the Bible NEVER does.
Since it does not, I won't...and I don't think our translators should either. The Bible says "aionion"...and that is what we should accept as true.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Don't respond to an honest question, merely scoff at it and ignore it; your credibility is already in the gutter, you're simply making it worse. Shows what kind of scholarship it takes to swallow universalist heresy. Good job. :duh:
logos_x
New member
Aimiel, this was not a response to a question.
logos_x
New member
You find it a problem that I have rejected the lie of eternal torment. You then proceed to try to persuade that eternal torment is true, yet you offer nothing but nonsensical arguments that say things like..."if eternal torment isn't true then Christ died for nothing" and such things...and no matter what is said in rebuttle...you want to resort to "you don't understand"
I've explained Christian Universalism in great detail...and still you trot out old nonsense in response. Then you want to say that my credibility is in the gutter, and my responses make it worse.
Your problem is simple. You are wrong, and you want to make it true. There is only one reason the Universal Salvation is considered a heresy...that being that those that believe in eternal torment think they are right.
- Status