BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Obviously your perceptions are all fouled up, beyond that which your understanding can grasp. I have yet to see any of you (universalists) bring a single convincing argument to the table other than your own stubborness and ignorance. Because one has a 'picture' of God in their mind and then bows down to their own understanding of that picture doesn't make that picture or your understanding into God, it merely is worship of a false god that you've imagined or come to lean upon.

It isn't that eternal torment validates The Gospel, but that The Gospel makes it quite clear that it is the end of those who reject The Lord. Please stop rejecting Him.

:rotfl:

Doublespeak, Aimiel. Anyone can see it...if they look.

 

[Redfin]

Correct me if I'm wrong CM, but it seems that you are trying to make the point that without
eternal torment, there would be no reason to fear God?

I'm curious why the idea of hell as a "potentially painful, purgative process, used to bring about
healing" wouldn't warrant any fear?

How about an answer, CM? :think:

 

[Aimiel]

Doublespeak, Aimiel. Anyone can see it...if they look.

Hardly. It is clear, simply from the verbose arguments of universalists and the quoting of numerous 'sources' which demonstrates the heap of teachers they've acquiesced to for consensus of opinion and to satisfy the itching of their ears that demonstrates best the soggy ground that universalism is built upon. What 'anyone' can see is that universalism isn't what The Bible says or means. That much is clear from Scripture. Those who can't see that are looking for their own understanding, not God's Truth. They are reasoning amongst themselves. The Lord has said, "Come, let us reason together," not, "Go, reason amongst yourselves, and then find Scriptures to back up your reasoning."

 

[logos_x]

Hardly. It is clear, simply from the verbose arguments of universalists and the quoting of numerous 'sources' which demonstrates the heap of teachers they've acquiesced to for consensus of opinion and to satisfy the itching of their ears that demonstrates best the soggy ground that universalism is built upon. What 'anyone' can see is that universalism isn't what The Bible says or means. That much is clear from Scripture. Those who can't see that are looking for their own understanding, not God's Truth. They are reasoning amongst themselves. The Lord has said, "Come, let us reason together," not, "Go, reason amongst yourselves, and then find Scriptures to back up your reasoning."

What are YOU doing that is any different, Aimiel?

There have been NO ANSWERS coming from your camp about several things. You continue to deny that death will be utterly destroyed with the outcome of the entire universe being in subjuction to Christ...not torment. You deny that people die, saying that they live forever in torment.

It goes on and on and on....

 

[Ecumenicist]

Whenever I read posts by Red77, Logos_X or Dave, I'm often remined of this verse...

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

That's funny, because yours, Nin's and PK's posts remind me of the
same verse!

Which viewpoint is self serving? That's the crux of the Pharisaic point of view Jesus criticizes.

You seem to think that we adhere to this viewpoint because we think it
saves our own skin while we live in sin. That's not the case at all.

I'm washed in the blood, born again, and living the promise, here and now.

I adhere to this viewpoint because the thought of billions and billions
of sentient beings living in eternal torment is physically, morally, and
spiritually repugnant, and therefore cannot be God's Truth.

The Universalist viewpoint actually cares about others, and not just others
who are saved, and not just others who may be saved one day, but the
Billions and Billions of truly "other" others who ahve never and will never
come to know the Lord through Jesus Christ.

To care only about "others" who are "like me" goes against God's Word.

The Samaritan, who knows nothing of Jesus, but cares about others
above his own comfort level will be saved before the righteous Pharisee.

 

[Aimiel]

What are YOU doing that is any different, Aimiel?

As compared to universalists? Merely taking The Author at His Word. God says things which are clear, but re-defining words and trying to muck-up the Truth doesn't do anything but discredit those who think themselves to be some great 'authority' on Scripture.

You continue to deny that death will be utterly destroyed with the outcome of the entire universe being in subjuction to Christ...not torment.

The torment is certainly subjection. If you don't understand that, it isn't my fault.

You deny that people die, saying that they live forever in torment.

I've never denied that people die, I simply understand that the 'Second Death' isn't what you've pictured it as. The first death, where we pass from the temporal realm to the spirit realm is followed by judgement, where those who are found guilty of sin are put to the second death: where they leave the spirit realm and enter the realm of eternal conscious torment. They will be just as 'gone' from the living as the dead are from us, they will not be visible or able to interact with us (believers) in any way. Next question.

 

[logos_x]

As compared to universalists? Merely taking The Author at His Word. God says things which are clear, but re-defining words and trying to muck-up the Truth doesn't do anything but discredit those who think themselves to be some great 'authority' on Scripture.

Aimiel...taking the author at His word...and NOT the word of flawed people who have erroneously translated things to fit their beliefs...is exactly what I'm arguing. What the Word says as compared to our translation of that word is a problem...were you aware of this?

The torment is certainly subjection. If you don't understand that, it isn't my fault.

There is no torment in being in subjection to Christ.
Sorry...if you think there is that just proves your misunderstanding of what it means to be in subjection to Christ.

I've never denied that people die, I simply understand that the 'Second Death' isn't what you've pictured it as. The first death, where we pass from the temporal realm to the spirit realm is followed by judgement, where those who are found guilty of sin are put to the second death: where they leave the spirit realm and enter the realm of eternal conscious torment. They will be just as 'gone' from the living as the dead are from us, they will not be visible or able to interact with us (believers) in any way. Next question.

So...the second death is NOT really death at all...and it also is not going to be destroyed when death is destroyed.

Talk about re-defining things!

 

[Aimiel]

Aimiel...taking the author at His word...and NOT the word of flawed people who have erroneously translated things to fit their beliefs...is exactly what I'm arguing. What the Word says as compared to our translation of that word is a problem...were you aware of this?

I understand that you've been led to believe that, although, for the life of me, I still can't understand why.

There is no torment in being in subjection to Christ.

You've obviously got a different dictionary than I do...

Subjection:
subjugation: forced submission to control by others;
conquest: the act of conquering.

I don't see where being forced to the Lake of Fire will ever bring someone into Heaven. As has been pointed out many times, there's no scripture stating that anyone sent there will ever be let out. Ever.

 

[Nineveh]

That's funny, because yours, Nin's and PK's posts remind me of the
same verse!

That's pretty rich coming from someone who doesn't even know basic Christianity 101.

 

[logos_x]

I understand that you've been led to believe that, although, for the life of me, I still can't understand why.You've obviously got a different dictionary than I do...

Subjection:
subjugation: forced submission to control by others;
conquest: the act of conquering.

I don't see where being forced to the Lake of Fire will ever bring someone into Heaven. As has been pointed out many times, there's no scripture stating that anyone sent there will ever be let out. Ever.

We are talking about being subject to Christ, Aimiel.

The words in the Greek...

Subdued unto.....be subject unto
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
Thayer Definition:
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one’s self, obey
4) to submit to one’s control
5) to yield to one’s admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
Part of Speech: verb

For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet.

And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. (Note this says EVERYTHING except God Himself...right?)


But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:25-28)

That you cannot understand is obvious...the reason you cannot is because of your current plausibilty structure...and the plausibility structure you are in is that God created or will create an endless aion in which immortal men will burn and never leads anywhere else.

That you think this is what God is doing is based upon the mistranslation of "aion" and it's adjectives...primarily, and the belief that all men live forever somewhere, in spite of the fact that God prevents this from happening within the first three chapters of the Book.

...but, hey, I used to think like you do...so I get it.

 

[Nineveh]

logos,
Is someone who is thrown in prison subjugated to the law?

If so, does this mean their heart is subjugated to the judge who put them there?

 

[logos_x]

logos,
Is someone who is thrown in prison subjugated to the law?

If so, does this mean their heart is subjugated to the judge who put them there?

Excellent question.

The issue I'm addressing is whether it IMPOSSIBLE for a person...once they die physically...for there to be a change.

If you think about it...that is what the DOCTRIN of eternal torment says...that once you are dead, any judgement that God imposes is "eternally" set and no further choice is available.

Free will only lasts as long as you have a "mortal" body is, in fact, what it says. Once made immortal, free will is abolished. It's a bait and switch, and human nature is changed in such a way that everything in the future is static and immutable...evn if you repent, it's just too late to change your eternal fate and no mitigation of your state of "existance" CAN be offered.

If this is applied to the Open View...then an open future slams shut once you lose your mortal body...and once made immortal everything is set in stone.

Why do people think in this way?

It comes from Pagan belief systems...not the Word of the Living God.

Another point is your choice of words....

Subjugate
To bring under control; conquer. See synonyms at defeat.
To make subservient; enslave.

Which is fine...IF you consider what it means to be ENSLAVED or conquered by CHRIST...which is in reality our SALVATION.
To be enslaved by CHRIST is to be FREE FROM SIN...this is clearly the picture the Bible paints.

The Greek word is translated as "subjected"...and this to CHRIST and no other. Again, the words are very precise in Greek...not at all like English, and the meaning overall that Paul is bringing to our eyes and ears is of the complete victory of Christ in conquering evil with good... and death with life.

 

[Aimiel]

We are talking about being subject to Christ, Aimiel.

The words in the Greek...

Subdued unto.....be subject unto
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
Thayer Definition:
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one’s self, obey
4) to submit to one’s control
5) to yield to one’s admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
Part of Speech: verb

For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet.

And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. (Note this says EVERYTHING except God Himself...right?)


But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:25-28)

That you cannot understand is obvious...

I do understand, but apparently you don't. I see nothing in what you've posted which removes the clear and sound doctrine of eternal conscious torment from The Scriptures. If you do, then I guess that is the way you want to see things: through rose-colored glasses. I prefer to see as clearly as possible.

 

[red77]

I do understand, but apparently you don't. I see nothing in what you've posted which removes the clear and sound doctrine of eternal conscious torment from The Scriptures. If you do, then I guess that is the way you want to see things: through rose-colored glasses. I prefer to see as clearly as possible.

You see nothing because the glasses you wear are dark - much like the doctrine of ECT.....

 

[Aimiel]

You see nothing because the glasses you wear are dark - much like the doctrine of ECT...

Because you lean upon your own understanding, you call the light: darkness.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Jesus taught that we should fear Him Who can cast body and soul into hell, that those in hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire and that the torment of those relegated to that punishment will never cease. I see that what He taught is Truth, and so is the light that we live by. My glasses are just fine. Your rejection of sound doctrine tells in whom you have believed: :devil:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Correct me if I'm wrong CM, but it seems that you are trying to make the point that without
eternal torment, there would be no reason to fear God?

I'm curious why the idea of hell as a "potentially painful, purgative process, used to bring about
healing" wouldn't warrant any fear?

Because you would know that it is not eternal. You would know that at somepoint in the future you would get out. In short, you would have hope.

As long as that (false) hope exists it sets up a condition where people can live their life anyway they want to if they are willing to do their time hell. They figure they will end up in heaven anyway so they can spend their life hating God by doing what is evil.

God says no. God says that if you choose to spend your life hating Him you will spend eternity seperated from Him. He wants us to know that there is a point where there is no hope. We should fear that.

 

[logos_x]

Because you would know that it is not eternal. You would know that at somepoint in the future you would get out. In short, you would have hope.

As long as that (false) hope exists it sets up a condition where people can live their life anyway they want to if they are willing to do their time hell. They figure they will end up in heaven anyway so they can spend their life hating God by doing what is evil.

God says no. God says that if you choose to spend your life hating Him you will spend eternity seperated from Him. He wants us to know that there is a point where there is no hope. We should fear that.

So....billions of people in torment without hope is what it takes for the living to love and trust God?

The only way to have faith in God is to believe that this is His final solution to sin?

No wonder there are so many atheists... :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Of course I fear God.

You are refering to Matthew 25:46 I take it.

46Rotherham: And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

46Diaglott: And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just ones into life age-lasting.

46Twenty: And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"

46Weymouth: "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages

46Youngs Literal: "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​

These versions respect the words used in the translation. They impose no meaning upon the words used.

I've already shared what many scholars have said concerning the Greek word "aionion".
It is "pertaining to an aion or aions"...and it is a QUALITATIVE word, not one that is quantitative...in other words it isn't even meant to refer to duration at all...but more properly the SOURCE of the punishment or the life. It is not in reference to a mathematical something that is infinite and never ends...rather in reference to whence the punishment or the life comes.

So...even if you look at it as "eternal", it means FROM eternity...not lasting through it.

:dizzy:

46Rotherham: And, these, shall go away, into, from eternity correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

46Diaglott: And shall go away these into a cutting-off from eternity ; the and just ones into life from eternity .

46Twenty: And these last will go away 'into from eternity punishment,' but the righteous 'into from eternity life.'"

46Weymouth: "And these shall go away into the Punishment from eternity , but the righteous into the Life from eternity

46Youngs Literal: "And these shall go away to punishment from eternity , but the righteous to life from eternity .'​

Boy, that sure makes a lot of sense. I am so glad that we dont have to woory about durations any more.

Are these important considerations? Well, yes they are if you are interested in what Christ was REALLY saying.

As long as Greek was the prevailing language of the Church...the majority did NOT believe in "eternal" punishment. They believed in judgements with purpose that were not an end in themselves.

Today, the opposite is true...and this soley because we think that "aionion" is a quantity that speaks of the DURATION of a "final" judgement. But that is not the case at all in the Greek...it is a consequence of the way things were translated coupled with the change of the meanings of the ENGLISH language over time. Today, we view death as the beginning of "eternity"...but think about this...how could that be?

It is not the beginning of eternity, it is our point of entry into eternity. Eternity, as you have pointed out before, has no beginning and no end. God is eternal in that He has no beginning and no end, He always has been, is no and always will be. We, on the other hand, are created beings. We have a beginning. We are taught from the Bible that those who die in Christ are absent from the body and present with the Lord. We go through a transition from this mortal body to an immortal soul that waits with God until Jesus returns and creates our resurected, perfect bodies.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Of course I fear God.

You are refering to Matthew 25:46 I take it.

46Rotherham: And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

46Diaglott: And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just ones into life age-lasting.

46Twenty: And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"

46Weymouth: "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages

46Youngs Literal: "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​

These versions respect the words used in the translation. They impose no meaning upon the words used.

I've already shared what many scholars have said concerning the Greek word "aionion".
It is "pertaining to an aion or aions"...and it is a QUALITATIVE word, not one that is quantitative...in other words it isn't even meant to refer to duration at all...but more properly the SOURCE of the punishment or the life. It is not in reference to a mathematical something that is infinite and never ends...rather in reference to whence the punishment or the life comes.

So...even if you look at it as "eternal", it means FROM eternity...not lasting through it.

Are these important considerations? Well, yes they are if you are interested in what Christ was REALLY saying.

As long as Greek was the prevailing language of the Church...the majority did NOT believe in "eternal" punishment. They believed in judgements with purpose that were not an end in themselves.

Today, the opposite is true...and this soley because we think that "aionion" is a quantity that speaks of the DURATION of a "final" judgement. But that is not the case at all in the Greek...it is a consequence of the way things were translated coupled with the change of the meanings of the ENGLISH language over time. Today, we view death as the beginning of "eternity"...but think about this...how could that be?

Review my opening post in the Battle Royale where I address this...http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1282929&postcount=5

So....billions of people in torment without hope is what it takes for the living to love and trust God?

The only way to have faith in God is to believe that this is His final solution to sin?

No wonder there are so many atheists... :think:

God's ways are not our ways. My faith in God is not effected by your or anybody elses final destination. I want to share my faith with people so that they can avoid the lake of fire. But it is not my faith, or yours, that determines where somebody ends up. Each of us are judged based on our relationship with Christ. Christ came to teach us what God's plan for salvation is and what the consequences for both accepting and rejecting that salvation are.

You assume that billions of people are condemned to hell because you doubt God's justice. Because the Bible is silent regarding their fate you assume that God will simply cast them into the lake. Fact is, we don't know. Do you trust God to be just? Do you trust God to merrit out perfect justice to every person who stands before Him? I do. I will do my best to spread the Gospel of Christ including eternal torment. A little fear is good for the soul!

 

[Aimiel]

Do you trust God to be just? Do you trust God to merrit out perfect justice to every person who stands before Him? I do.

Amen. He is Holy. He knows every thought and intent of every heart. Of every idle word that men shall speak they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. I trust Him, thank God for His Goodness. :thumb: