Silk Queen
New member
Christianity is like the country club you have to have membership, you have to sign a creed and believe all that don't believe in *eternal torment* Hell cannot join. 
Sarcasm intended.
Sarcasm intended.
BRXII Battle talk
- Thread starter Poly
- Start date
- Status
PKevman
New member
logos_x said:
There is one Gospel. Period. Paul defined it. When you say the salvation of all is the Gospel you give a different definition of what THE Gospel is than what Paul did.
Paul's definition of THE Gospel is again:
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
The Gospel: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.
Paul says it is by receiving his gospel that they are saved. And yet his gospel doesn't include anywhere "the salvation of all". But you have been attempting to assert that the salvation of all is the Gospel and that if someone rejects the salvation of all they have rejected the Gospel. I have shown that your views are not in line with the Bible and now you are trying to spin your way out of it.
Once again: Please support your statement "The salvation of all is the Gospel" with the Bible verse that states that or admit that it doesn't say that anywhere, then we can move on.
PKevman
New member
Silk Queen said:Christianity is like the country club you have to have membership, you have to sign a creed and believe all that don't believe in *eternal torment* Hell cannot join.
Sarcasm intended.
No Christianity is not like that at all. Christianity is all about having a relationship with Christ. It's not religion. And yet you are correct in that it is highly exclusive because Jesus said He was the only way to Heaven and the only way to the Father. There are no other roads that lead one to Heaven. He is the way.
Ecumenicist
New member
PastorKevin said:
According to Jesus, the Gospel seems to be the Beatitudes:
Matt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the
gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among
the people.
logos_x
New member
For if, through the transgression of the one individual, Death made use of the one individual to seize the sovereignty, all the more shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign as kings in Life through the one individual, Jesus Christ.
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous.
Now Law was brought in later on, so that transgression might increase. But where sin increased, grace has overflowed; in order that as sin has exercised kingly sway in inflicting death, so grace, too, may exercise kingly sway in bestowing a righteousness which results in the Life of the Ages through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 5:17-21 WNT)
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous.
Now Law was brought in later on, so that transgression might increase. But where sin increased, grace has overflowed; in order that as sin has exercised kingly sway in inflicting death, so grace, too, may exercise kingly sway in bestowing a righteousness which results in the Life of the Ages through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 5:17-21 WNT)
I don't see a contradiction.
Why you do is a mystery to me, Kevin.
Silk Queen
New member
I believe the dead are dead until Judgement.. does anyone believe there are tortured beings suffering in hell now?
Aimiel
Well-known member
It wasn't specified as to which type of human was described, but The Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord, whether it is to enter paradise or to be judged. There isn't 'soul sleep' or any other type of 'death' one might imagine. There is paradise and there is hell.
logos_x
New member
Nin,
Hardly anyone believes people die these days.
They die. They are dead Nin.
That has nothing to do with "soul sleep". A "soul" is when the spirit and the body come together. That IS a living soul.
When one dies the reverse happens.
They are no longer a living soul.
Everyone dies once.
But, not everyone will be "hurt of the second death"...which occures AFTER resurrection and judgement.
But some will.
This occures sometime AFTER the Millenial Kingdom has run its course.
Believers, however, raise up when the Lord returns BEFORE the Millenial Kingdom age. They get to participate in this Kingdom Age...not all of mankind does.
Resurrection, and when they rise, is the key.
Christ was first to rise. Then you have all that are Christ's at His return rising and the Kingdom Age.
After the Kingdom Age has run its course you have the resurrection of all men for judgment. Some to life, if they are in the book of life...some to the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. But that still is not the end. All death will be overcome...obliterated.
So, what we have is the dead rising in different ages...at different times, until death is without any hold and absolutely no victory, in the end.
This is why Paul wrote what He wrote the way he did.
The doctrine of eternal torment obscures what was intended to be understood.
And that is why Revelation ends the way it does....
Hardly anyone believes people die these days.
They die. They are dead Nin.
That has nothing to do with "soul sleep". A "soul" is when the spirit and the body come together. That IS a living soul.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Gen 2:7 KJV)
(Gen 2:7 KJV)
When one dies the reverse happens.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Ecc 12:7 KJV)
(Ecc 12:7 KJV)
They are no longer a living soul.
Everyone dies once.
But, not everyone will be "hurt of the second death"...which occures AFTER resurrection and judgement.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Rev 2:11 KJV)
(Rev 2:11 KJV)
But some will.
and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all decievers, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' (Rev 21:8)
This occures sometime AFTER the Millenial Kingdom has run its course.
Believers, however, raise up when the Lord returns BEFORE the Millenial Kingdom age. They get to participate in this Kingdom Age...not all of mankind does.
Resurrection, and when they rise, is the key.
Christ was first to rise. Then you have all that are Christ's at His return rising and the Kingdom Age.
After the Kingdom Age has run its course you have the resurrection of all men for judgment. Some to life, if they are in the book of life...some to the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. But that still is not the end. All death will be overcome...obliterated.
So, what we have is the dead rising in different ages...at different times, until death is without any hold and absolutely no victory, in the end.
This is why Paul wrote what He wrote the way he did.
For if none of the dead are raised to life, then Christ has not risen; and if Christ has not risen, your faith is a vain thing--you are still in your sins.
It follows also that those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world. But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep.
For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead. For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power. For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet.
And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:16-28 WNT)
It follows also that those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world. But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep.
For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead. For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power. For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet.
And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:16-28 WNT)
The doctrine of eternal torment obscures what was intended to be understood.
And that is why Revelation ends the way it does....
Then he showed me the river of the Water of Life, bright as crystal, issuing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. On either side of the river, midway between it and the main street of the city, was the Tree of Life. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, yielding a fresh crop month by month, and the leaves of the tree served as medicine for the nations.
"In future there will be no curse," he said, "but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in that city. And His servants will render Him holy service and will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will be no night there; and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will shine upon them, and they will be kings until the Ages of the Ages."
And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the Prophets, sent His angel to make known to His servants the things which must soon happen. 'I am coming quickly.' Blessed is he who is mindful of the predictions contained in this book."
I John heard and saw these things; and when I had heard and seen them, I fell at the feet of the angel who was showing me them--to worship him. But he said to me, "Oh, do not do that. I am a fellow bondservant of yours, and a fellow bondservant of your brethren the Prophets and of those who are mindful of the teachings of this book. Worship God."
"Make no secret," he added, "of the meaning of the predictions contained in this book; for the time for their fulfillment is now close at hand.
Let the dishonest man act dishonestly still; let the filthy make himself filthy still; let the righteous practise righteousness still; and let the holy be made holy still."
"I am coming quickly; and My reward is with Me, that I may requite every man in accordance with what his conduct has been. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city.
The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.
"I Jesus have sent My angel for him solemnly to declare these things to you among the Churches. I am the Root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
(Rev 22:1-17 WNT)
"In future there will be no curse," he said, "but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in that city. And His servants will render Him holy service and will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will be no night there; and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will shine upon them, and they will be kings until the Ages of the Ages."
And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the Prophets, sent His angel to make known to His servants the things which must soon happen. 'I am coming quickly.' Blessed is he who is mindful of the predictions contained in this book."
I John heard and saw these things; and when I had heard and seen them, I fell at the feet of the angel who was showing me them--to worship him. But he said to me, "Oh, do not do that. I am a fellow bondservant of yours, and a fellow bondservant of your brethren the Prophets and of those who are mindful of the teachings of this book. Worship God."
"Make no secret," he added, "of the meaning of the predictions contained in this book; for the time for their fulfillment is now close at hand.
Let the dishonest man act dishonestly still; let the filthy make himself filthy still; let the righteous practise righteousness still; and let the holy be made holy still."
"I am coming quickly; and My reward is with Me, that I may requite every man in accordance with what his conduct has been. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city.
The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.
"I Jesus have sent My angel for him solemnly to declare these things to you among the Churches. I am the Root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
(Rev 22:1-17 WNT)
Silk Queen
New member
The body goes to the grave turns to dust, the spirit go's back to God awaiting resurrection.PastorKevin said:
My understanding is the spirit is asleep until resurrection since the dead know nothing.
Ecumenicist
New member
Silk Queen said:
Sounds like a reasonable interpretation to me.
Do you believe in bodily resurrection?
Ecumenicist
New member
Logos' interpretation is reasonable as well.
No one really knows, its part of the Divine Mystery, but Scripture provides some clues.
Paul's discussion of hte "twinking of an eye" comes to mind for me.
No one really knows, its part of the Divine Mystery, but Scripture provides some clues.
Paul's discussion of hte "twinking of an eye" comes to mind for me.
logos_x
New member
Nineveh said:
Try to follow along...
EVERYONE dies.
Everyone is resurrected.
But each in his own ORDER.
Those that are Christ's riase at His return
They participate in the Kingdom Age.
AFTER the kingdom age everyone is raised. They are then alive again.
They are judged. Those not written in the book of life suffer the second death.
Not everyone suffers the second death. But they have TWO deaths...the first death, and then the second one.
I child could understand it NIn.
Death will subsequently be overtrown completely, and whosoever will is invited in...but that is eons away.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
logos_x said:
GREAT!!
Now... back to the subject I've been trying to get you to address over the last 4 or 5 posts...
What is the first death?
What is the second death?
Why are there two?
What do people die to in the first death?
What do people die to in the second death?
For someone so willing to promote his ideas on the lake of fire it seems you would be more than willing to discuss what death actually is and how it effects us.
- Status