BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Wrong. It is offered to everyone. Not everyone receives it. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. He has given every man 'the measure of faith' but not every man makes use of it. Some ignore it and end up in hell. Others make use of it and get saved. Still others presume upon it and create imaginary uses for it.

Your teaching of eternal torment belittles the cross of Christ. It sets eternal destiny on the shoulders of humanity, rather than on the shoulders of Christ. Your teachings are part of the "wood, grass and straw" of 1 Cor. 3:12, and these will not survive the testing fires of God.

Christ gives salvation, and it is a gift, and we are given what we cannot possibly earn.
In your system, God is not the savior, He merely offers us a choice with no help where man really needs it. Grace isn't really grace in this system, it is salvation by works, by willpower, knowledge...and chance. Your "faith" is in YOUR abilities or others ability to accept your asthetic, not God's ability to save to the uttermost.

And it resembles the Pharisees more than Christ.

I have rejected that system.
Remain within it without questioning it if you wish to, Aim.

 

[Aimiel]

Your teaching of eternal torment belittles the cross of Christ. It sets eternal destiny on the shoulders of humanity, rather than on the shoulders of Christ. Your teachings are part of the "wood, grass and straw" of 1 Cor. 3:12, and these will not survive the testing fires of God.

What a load of crap. The grace and even the faith to receive that grace are from The Lord. Your insane teaching of universalism is simply foolishness, that wipes its feet in The Blood of The Lamb, making it of no effect whatsoever.

Christ gives salvation, and it is a gift, and we are given what we cannot possibly earn.

To those who get saved, you're half-right; but that also makes you half-wrong; which in the case of understanding has to be held as all-wrong.

In your system, God is not the savior, He merely offers us a choice with no help where man really needs it.

He has to draw us, He has to send a preacher, we have to hear and respond to His Gospel. No response = no salvation. :duh:

Grace isn't really grace in this system, it is salvation by works, by willpower, knowledge...and chance. Your "faith" is in YOUR abilities or others ability to accept your asthetic, not God's ability to save to the uttermost.

If God decided that everyone would be saved, He would have certainly told us; since He didn't, we have to go with what He has told us, that He wants all to be saved, and that the salvation of every soul is available. Not everyone receives that salvation.

Remain within it without questioning it if you wish to, Aim.

Well, Log, you're about as bright as your nickname, a log. I remain saved. You remain thinking that everyone is saved. You're the one who isn't thinking. :think:

 

[Aimiel]

God provided us the earliest example of Christ by having Moses lift up a serpent on a pole. Those who didn't look to the serpent when they were snakebit died. Those who looked (as God had instructed them to) died. Will those who reject God's Son go un-punished? Of course not. Salvation is available to all, but not all will avail themselves of it.

 

[Aimiel]

The analogy was whether or not it would be more loving to use force to stop a child from doing themselves harm, in the case of a parent the child may already be an adult but that doesnt negate the parent using force if it is in the best interests of their children, if your child was about to inject themselves with drugs and you had the opportunity to take the needle away would you do it or not?

My six-year-old daughter? If I didn't, I would be the one who is guilty, not my child, who isn't yet 'accountable' for her actions. My 25-year-old son? I would have to consider, If I throw this away, will he go to his friend (who doesn't have near the cleanliness my son does) and will he possibly get infected from the needle (maybe with H.I.V.??) and what crime might he commit to buy the next fix... etc., etc... Your 'analogy' isn't nearly as simple as it might appear. No, I wouldn't simply jump at the 'chance' to do what you've described. You're obviously not very good at critical thinking.

Then what were you saying about revelation being full of mystery and that you and other servants would be able to decipher its message?

Maybe you could scroll back and come to me with a more specific question.

The thing is you cant have it both ways Aimiel, on the one hand you say that the message is so simple that a little child can understand it (including ET) and then in the book where the lake of fire is actually mentioned its too complicated for the average person to understand!

Whatever makes you say that? Do you not understand The Word of God? Maybe you should take some Sunday-School classes. :baby:

 

[Nineveh]

The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is not one of salvation.

The difference between the saved and the unsaved is confessing Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart God raised Him from the dead. The difference is faith in Christ.

Salvation is given by grace to everyone.

Not so. Grace is offered to everyone. Big difference. John separates a difference between those who believe and are saved and those who do not believe and are condemned already.

...some to suffer second death. Later, there will be a new heavens and earth, and then those in the second death are invited in.(see Rev. 22:1-17)

What does one die to in the first death?
What does one die to in the second death?

Where are the verse(s) that indicate, "those in the second death are invited in" in Rev. 22:1-17?

Your point's 1 and 2 above may well be right, Nin...but RESURRECTION, and the order involved, is the key to unlocking the truth about the outcome.

The Resurrection is the defining factor of salvation. If someone doesn't put their faith in Christ and the work He has accoplished, they are condemned already. We have no excuse.

 

[logos_x]

The difference between the saved and the unsaved is confessing Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart God raised Him from the dead. The difference is faith in Christ.

I was reffering to position. I wasn't refuting the difference of faith. Of course there is that difference...that is just too obvious.

Not so. Grace is offered to everyone. Big difference. John separates a difference between those who believe and are saved and those who do not believe and are condemned already.

Grace extends to all people. They have to know that and understand that before they can place faith in it.

What does one die to in the first death?
What does one die to in the second death?

They are dead. They are not alive.

Where are the verse(s) that indicate, "those in the second death are invited in" in Rev. 22:1-17?

Let the dishonest man act dishonestly still; let the filthy make himself filthy still; let the righteous practise righteousness still; and let the holy be made holy still."
"I am coming quickly; and My reward is with Me, that I may requite every man in accordance with what his conduct has been. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city. The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.
"I Jesus have sent My angel for him solemnly to declare these things to you among the Churches. I am the Root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
(Rev 22:11-17 WNT)

The Resurrection is the defining factor of salvation. If someone doesn't put their faith in Christ and the work He has accoplished, they are condemned already. We have no excuse.

Yep.

 

[logos_x]

If God decided that everyone would be saved, He would have certainly told us; since He didn't, we have to go with what He has told us, that He wants all to be saved, and that the salvation of every soul is available. Not everyone receives that salvation.

Oh yes He did...

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

I don't know how He could possibly say it any more clearly than that, do you?

You remain thinking that everyone is saved. You're the one who isn't thinking. :think:

Amiel, it's clear that you are the one that isn't thinking.

Grace is more than just "available", it is real and it is substantial. Everyone is saved, they just don't all know about it.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Oh yes He did...

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

I don't know how He could possibly say it any more clearly than that, do you?

Amiel, it's clear that you are the one that isn't thinking.

Grace is more than just "available", it is real and it is substantial. Everyone is saved, they just don't all know about it.

Does every knee bow due to forced submission, or joyful recognition? Is God like
Nebuchadnezer in Daniel?

 

[logos_x]

Does every knee bow due to forced submission, or joyful recognition? Is God like
Nebuchadnezer in Daniel?

Well, let's see.
The word translated as confess in the greek is:

ἐξομολογέω
exomologeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to confess
2) to profess
2a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
2b) to one’s honour: to celebrate, give praise to
2c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
Part of Speech: verb

I think that pretty much puts it in the category of joyful recognition, but if you ask a beliver in eternal torment then it is forced subjugation. In fact, as has been demonstated in this thread, if God succeeds in saving everyone He's a tyrant.... :bang:

 

[Aimiel]

Amiel, it's clear that you are the one that isn't thinking.

Grace is more than just "available", it is real and it is substantial. Everyone is saved, they just don't all know about it.

If every knee bowing were all that is required, then He never would have told us that without faith it was impossible to please Him, would He? :think:

 

[logos_x]

If every knee bowing were all that is required, then He never would have told us that without faith it was impossible to please Him, would He? :think:

How will they bow, willingly, in praise and honor, openly and joyfully...devoting themselves to Him...unless they have faith?

 

[Aimiel]

How will they bow, willingly, in praise and honor, openly and joyfully...devoting themselves to Him...unless they have faith?

Because you cannot deny God what is due Him, when you see Him. He is deserving of praise, honor and glory, even though no faith is required to do so, in His Presence. The demons also tremble at His Presence, but that doesn't mean that they're saved. You simply don't understand anything, do you?

 

[logos_x]

Because you cannot deny God what is due Him, when you see Him. He is deserving of praise, honor and glory, even though no faith is required to do so, in His Presence. The demons also tremble at His Presence, but that doesn't mean that they're saved. You simply don't understand anything, do you?

:rotfl:

Ok, Aimiel. Have it your way.

 

[red77]

My six-year-old daughter? If I didn't, I would be the one who is guilty, not my child, who isn't yet 'accountable' for her actions. My 25-year-old son? I would have to consider, If I throw this away, will he go to his friend (who doesn't have near the cleanliness my son does) and will he possibly get infected from the needle (maybe with H.I.V.??) and what crime might he commit to buy the next fix... etc., etc... Your 'analogy' isn't nearly as simple as it might appear. No, I wouldn't simply jump at the 'chance' to do what you've described. You're obviously not very good at critical thinking.Maybe you could scroll back and come to me with a more specific question.Whatever makes you say that? Do you not understand The Word of God? Maybe you should take some Sunday-School classes. :baby:

Oh for crying out loud, OBVIOUSLY it would take more than just yanking the needle away from him, it would involve getting counselling, possibly rehabilitation and treatment, the analogy was relevant enough in that a loving parent would not sit idly by and let their son or daughter cause themselves serious harm or possibly even death, if you missed the point of that then you were either being evasive or your own 'critical thinking' skills need sharpening up, having now cleared it up would you jump in to save your adult child from serious harm (with all the possible ramifications) or would you sit idly by?

How more specific a question do I need to ask? After i asked you whether revelation was simple enough for a child to understand you went into a long explanation of the mysteries that God has yet to reveal - apparently through his servants - which would be revealed in due course. You also said that you were one of these servants and also a prophet which I've seen you declare on other threads beside this one. So which is it? Is the word of God so easy that a "sunday school" class teacher would be able to explain it to the children (as you so :baby: put it) Or is too complicated in certain sections aka revelation where only the 'servants' will be able to decipher the message? So far you are just constantly contradicting yourself, you cannot have both........

 

[logos_x]

Grace:
For the grace of God has displayed itself with healing power to all mankind,
(Tit 2:11 WNT)

Love:
For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages. For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
(Joh 3:16-17 WNT)

But Jesus--who was made a little inferior to the angels in order that through God's grace He might taste death for every human being--we already see wearing a crown of glory and honour because of His having suffered death.
(Heb 2:9 WNT)


God's grace and love sent Jesus to die on the cross for every man (Rom. 3:24; 5:6-8). Why not? If grace, love and the death of Christ saves, why is not everyone saved?

The answer has been that God's gifts of forgiveness and eternal life are conditionally received (Rom. 1:16; 2:4; 5:1; 6:17, 18, 23; 10:9, 10). Man cannot earn his salvation, that is certain, "but God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8). Jesus died that we might be forgiven through his blood (Matt. 26:28; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18, 19).

Conditions must be met in order to be saved.

Sin brings death (Rom. 6:23; Jas. 1:13-15). Christ, though, "hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim. 1:10). "But, if that is true, why is not everyone saved?" Again, one must comply with terms or conditions of pardon. One must "believe" in order to be saved. The gospel is God's power to save, but it will not save the man who will not believe (Jn. 3:36; 8:24; Rom. 1:16). God's goodness will not save the man who will not repent (Lk. 13:3; Acts 17:30; Rom. 2:4). The blessings of grace are conditionally received!

Yes, the gift of God is eternal life, but it is only given unto "them that obey him" (Matt. 7:21; Rom. 6:17, 18; Heb. 5:9). The question is: "Have you obeyed him?" If not, please do so, for he will take vengeance on them "that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 2:6-11; 2 Thess. 1:8).

Now...A Universalist Christian believes all that. But, they also realize that the ONLY thing that would ensure that someone could NEVER meet the conditions of faith and repentence is if God stops the process arbitrarily for that person, and imposes a judgement that does that FOREVER. And that is precisely what the DOCTRINE of eternal unending punishment, in fact, teaches that God intends to do to all "unbelievers", willie-nillie and across the board.

My arguments, therefore, have focused on whether the Bible...in the Hebrew and Greek languages, which are very precise...in reality says: that there is a judgement that in effect overturns the workings of God's grace and mercy forever.

And the answer is it does NOT. In every instance where scripture is used to support "eternal" torment, the word is not a quanitative word, but a QUALITATIVE one...AND does not mean "eternal" as to duration, on it's own. It MUST be designated as "endless" in order to be unending and, therefore, "eternal" in duration.

It NEVER is. Not one time, anywhere in the entire Bible. In fact, if one views the aions of chastisment as unending, even though the Hebrew and Greek of the Bible does not say they are, you end up having to second guess all the scriptures that say that Jesus is the savior of all men, and say that He CANNOT be...not now, and not EVER.

Is it justified to say that God CANNOT save all men when the Bible clearly says that is the outcome as if there is no posibility He could fail, a AND never uses a word that designates the aions of chastisment as "unending"?

As I pointed out before...and people apparently wanted to ignore...IF there IS eternal torment, BIBLICALLY, it will not be because God removes the possibility of salvation from them. It will be only REMOTELY possible, and then only because when God...through the Spirit and the Bride....says "come, whosover will, and drink in the water of life" they refuse to do so FOREVER.

I don't think anyone will.

 

[Nineveh]

Grace extends to all people. They have to know that and understand that before they can place faith in it.

Grace is extened to people while they are alive and can accept it. We are without excuse. Do you really think balder doesn't understand?

They are dead. They are not alive.

What does one die to in the first death?
What does one die to in the second death?

Let the dishonest man act dishonestly still; let the filthy make himself filthy still; let the righteous practise righteousness still; and let the holy be made holy still."
"I am coming quickly; and My reward is with Me, that I may requite every man in accordance with what his conduct has been. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city. The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.
"I Jesus have sent My angel for him solemnly to declare these things to you among the Churches. I am the Root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
(Rev 22:11-17 WNT)

Once again, you extend a word passed it's meaning in context.

 

[Nineveh]

Well, let's see.
The word translated as confess in the greek is:

ἐξομολογέω
exomologeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to confess
2) to profess
2a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
2b) to one’s honour: to celebrate, give praise to
2c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
Part of Speech: verb

I think that pretty much puts it in the category of joyful recognition, but if you ask a beliver in eternal torment then it is forced subjugation. In fact, as has been demonstated in this thread, if God succeeds in saving everyone He's a tyrant.... :bang:

You hinge satan bowing to God on a definition 2a?

 

[logos_x]

You hinge satan bowing to God on a definition 2a?

Why not?

EDIT: Apparently you want to narrow it down to one defintion, I suppose. Well, no, not just on definition 2a. I base it on all of those definitions.

 

[logos_x]

Grace is extened to people while they are alive and can accept it. We are without excuse. Do you really think balder doesn't understand?

No..I think it is not correct.

What does one die to in the first death?
What does one die to in the second death?

They are dead. That means they are not alive...to anything. So they die to everything.

Once again, you extend a word passed it's meaning in context.

Once again, you fail to see all the possibilities. And...once again, the "context" does not refute what is said.

Maybe you should consider that I have not extended anything past anything.

 

[PKevman]

Kevin, Paul says it everywhere. Who do you think said 1 Timothy 4:10, Ghandi? Or God all in all when all things are in subjection?

Once again you have failed to show a verse that gives any indication that the salvation of all is the Gospel. Nowhere in the Bible where the Gospel is referred to does it say that it means the salvation of all. You have repeatedly ignored Paul's definition of what the Gospel is when he clearly gives a definition for it and it has nothing to do with the salvation of all. But I guess it is easier to ignore something that refutes your position than to discuss it.

Yes, it is the assertion of Paul that faith is a result of grace, and is a gift of God.
"Who" the gift saves is the person it saves.

Wrong Paul is addressing Christians in the text, and that is the YOU he is referring to when he says it is by grace YOU have been saved THROUGH faith. Paul did not assert that faith is a result of grace, this is a gross misstatement. Faith is something that is the result of a choice. If I go to sit in a chair I am putting my faith in the chair to hold me up. I made the choice. God doesn't MAKE us choose Him no matter how much you try to say He does your assertions do not match up with Scripture.

I have distorted what in Ephesians 2:8-9?

The meaning of it by saying it says faith is a gift of God when it is salvation that is the gift. Paul is not saying in that text that faith is the gift of God and not of works so that no man can boast. That is why you have distorted the meaning. If faith is the gift of God mentioned in the text, then why does he also say it is not by works so that no man can boast?

In fact here is the verse in context and any rational person who is not looking to fit their own theologies into can understand exactly what the Apostle is saying:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

By grace we are saved, Stephen. Not by works because works cannot save us. That is why we can assert very clearly that salvation is the gift of God that Paul is talking about here, the grace shown by God in granting us salvation! We are saved through faith and not through works. This is why I said you along with the Universalists have distorted what these verses say, and once again have pulled them out of context and tried to bend them to make them mean what you want them to mean.

By the way, you still have not shown a single verse that says that the salvation of all is the Gospel. Want to try again?

What about the context requires an unending aion of chastisement, Kevin?

Actually this particular text doesn't talk about the punishment of the wicked, that is dealt with in other verses very plainly. It certainly doesn't say anything about the "salvation of all" being the Gospel. And while we ARE clearly given verses which indicate that unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire with THAT EXACT WORDING, we are NOT given any verses that clearly state the salvation of all is the Gospel, which is what you have asserted and been trying for several pages to prove. You will never, EVER show a verse that says that the salvation of all is the Gospel, because no such verse exists in the Word of God.

Who Paul was addressing was the church in Ephesis, and by extension all of the church. What is your point?

I agree wholeheartedly with you that Paul was addressing the church in Ephesus and by extension all of the church. My point is what he says is directed to people who are saved (i.e. the church in Ephesus and by extension all of the church): By grace YOU have been saved. The YOU is Christians, not everyone who has ever lived or ever will live. So now you admit that Paul was addressing only believers in Jesus Christ right? So then why do you try to change the context to mean that God saves all?

Ephesians 2:8-9 again:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God dealt the faith, Kevin...it doesn't come from man.
Again, what is your point?

You misquoted Romans 12:3 out of context was my point, Stephen. Paul is again addressing BRETHREN in that text and telling them not to think more highly of themselves than they ought to. Nowhere in that text does it say that God will give faith to everyone who has ever lived.

Here are the verses again:

Romans 12:1-8
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Clearly in the text he is talking about the fact that each person in the body has different gifts and abilities given by God.

Stephen, Please show where in the text in Romans 12:3 it indicates that God has given or will give faith to everyone who has ever lived or ever will live? That is exactly what you were trying to assert when you quoted it the first time!

Are you now going to say that God deliberatly witholds what is necessary for all men to be saved while saying that He wants to save all men?

no. I'll let you say that. You are the one twisting yourself into theological mumbo jumbo man!

Did God lie when He inspired the men who wrote those words to pass on to us...or is it true? If THAT isn't true, then what IS true?

What is true is that Universalists have pulled certain verses out of context and tried to make them mean things that they do not mean. That is why you are having a difficult time of making sense of some of them!

WHO dealt it to the brethren, Kevin? And it was that DEALING that made them "brethren", wasn't it?

No. It was that dealing that gave them spiritual gifts in the context of the text. Read it again and if you are not being completely close-minded you will see that is true. God dealt each of the BRETHREN a spiritual gift is what that text is talking about when you break it down and look at it. I mean LOOK AT VERSE #4!!!

"For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,"

It makes perfect sense when you put that statement in context with the fact that God has given each of the brethren a MEASURE of faith! Why do you think the word measure was thrown in there? To show the differences in the gifts!

Some Christians have a deeper faith than others. I know people who have completely abandoned everything they owned and went halfway around the world to preach the Gospel, trusting in God for their every need to be met. THAT is a different kind of faith than many Christians have. Each of the BRETHREN is called to exercise their spiritual gifts according to the MEASURE of faith that has been given to them by the Lord.