BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

NO, they are not. A relationship is a relationship. You know, conversations (prayer) with God and listening to what He says. Salvation is a gift of eternal life with God and Jesus in heaven. They are related but they are not the same thing.

Alright, I won't get into the semantics with you here. But I doubt you can have one without the other.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Your message is so despairing and futile, I feel sorry that your view of God is so dark and bleak

Whis do you tink it is dark and bleak? God created the univers and everything in it including heaven and the lake of fire. It is a fact in exactly the same way that the mountains are a fact and gravity is a fact. It is God's creation. It is not the good news of the gospel, it is just the creation.

Now, the good news is that hell is totally avoidable. Once you accept Jesus the thoughts of hell go away other than to use them a tool to witness to people. It is not crule to expain to people what the truth is and how to avoid an enevetable future.

One verse you guys should look at is in Paul.
Romans 9:20-22
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Universalism denys the Potter His due....

 

[CabinetMaker]

Alright, I won't get into the semantics with you here. But I doubt you can have one without the other.

I would agree. I would think that the relationship grows once you receive salvation.

 

[Solaris]

I suggest you read the rest of what Jesus said. Have you read Mathew 25? Salvation is not a free gift that everybody automatically gets. Forgiveness of their sins against the law is as that is what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Salvation is not. Look at mathew 25. People are sent tot he lake of fire. Look at revelations. The lake of fire lasts forever and people are sent to it before death is destroyed. It is described as the second death and it is final.

Then no matter what verses or arguments are given forward you steadfastly prefer to believe that God is an eternal tormentor of billions of souls, not only that you believe that he willingly planned things out this way in acordance with his will, Matthew 25 and the lake of fire have been debated at such depth and yet you (and others) still cling onto it being some place of literal torment, you reduce God to being a sadist and choose to ignore God's own intent and will into the bargain, the greek has been debated, the metaphor and symbolism of the sheep and the goats and the lake of fire have been debated and still the message of utter hopelesness/despair prevails, God intended from the outset to lose most of his own world, now why does that not make sense?

 

[logos_x]

Billions of people burning forever is a tool to witness to people so they would avoid an "inevitable future".

I suppose you would call that "common sense". :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Except...that Jesus is the savior of all men IS the Gospel.

An eternal hell would not save him. Grace will.

I'm sorry for your friend's step son. But it isn't Universal salvation that is to blame for this. I could tell you of a lot of people that have done the same thing while believing in an eternal Hell. I can even cite a story of a pastor of a mega-church in Colorado who taught of an eternal Hell while buying drugs from a homosexual prostitute.

The effectivness of the doctrine is not what you think it is.

Hell is just a fact. People need to understand that it is in ther future and it is not escapable. Whatever people believe about hell, some people will just not care and do what ever they want to do anyway. At least they know the truth and maybe that truth will work on them over time. The lie of universal salvation gives them a false sense of security.

Jese came that all men might be saved. Those that believe are saved. Those that don't aren't. Sorry but that is the fact. Jesus teaches it Himself in Mathew 25.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Then no matter what verses or arguments are given forward you steadfastly prefer to believe that God is an eternal tormentor of billions of souls, not only that you believe that he willingly planned things out this way in acordance with his will, Matthew 25 and the lake of fire have been debated at such depth and yet you (and others) still cling onto it being some place of literal torment, you reduce God to being a sadist and choose to ignore God's own intent and will into the bargain, the greek has been debated, the metaphor and symbolism of the sheep and the goats and the lake of fire have been debated and still the message of utter hopelesness/despair prevails, God intended from the outset to lose most of his own world, now why does that not make sense?

Tormentor suggests active involvement. Its more a fire and forget.

The lake is described as a real place of torment. You are so weak in your faith that you are unwilling to accept that God will judge and that that judgement is permenant and painful. Debateit all you want bu t the lake will be created as described in revelations and Jesus will populate as described in Mathew 25.

 

[logos_x]

I would agree. I would think that the relationship grows once you receive salvation.

I would agree here, too. But then, I define salvation as being saved from sin, not from permanent misery.

 

[Solaris]

Whis do you tink it is dark and bleak? God created the univers and everything in it including heaven and the lake of fire. It is a fact in exactly the same way that the mountains are a fact and gravity is a fact. It is God's creation. It is not the good news of the gospel, it is just the creation.

Now, the good news is that hell is totally avoidable. Once you accept Jesus the thoughts of hell go away other than to use them a tool to witness to people. It is not crule to expain to people what the truth is and how to avoid an enevetable future.

One verse you guys should look at is in Paul.
Romans 9:20-22
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Universalism denys the Potter His due....

What could be more dark and bleak than a future where billions of people are enslaved to unending torment and agonies with no escape?
You believe that most of the world winds up in this place of inescapable torment and you ask me why I think its dark and bleak?!
The only 'good news' you have is that a tiny percentage of the creation manage to avoid this place! And whats more you also believe that God wills this to happen, so again, you ask me why I think your belief is dark and bleak? Those terms are MILD...
universalism deny's the potter his due?! How exactly? By believing that God actually can fulfil his intent? That he can actually be 100% sucessful in what he desires for mankind? Where do you get this from?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Billions of people burning forever is a tool to witness to people so they would avoid an "inevitable future".

I suppose you would call that "common sense". :think:

It ias much more selfish than that. Whoever else may or may not be there makes no difference. What is in YOUR future. Do YOU want to avoid the lake? Its not about whos in hell, its about you in hell.

 

[logos_x]

Hell is just a fact. People need to understand that it is in ther future and it is not escapable. Whatever people believe about hell, some people will just not care and do what ever they want to do anyway. At least they know the truth and maybe that truth will work on them over time. The lie of universal salvation gives them a false sense of security.

Jese came that all men might be saved. Those that believe are saved. Those that don't aren't. Sorry but that is the fact. Jesus teaches it Himself in Mathew 25.

Does He?

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne, and all the nations will be gathered into His presence. And He will separate them from one another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and will make the sheep stand at His right hand, and the goats at His left.
"Then the King will say to those at His right, "'Come, my Father's blessed ones, receive your inheritance of the Kingdom which has been divinely intended for you ever since the creation of the world.

For when I was hungry, you gave me food; when I was thirsty, you gave me drink; when I was homeless, you gave me a welcome; when I was ill-clad, you clothed me; when I was sick, you visited me; when I was in prison, you came to see me.'

"'When, Lord,' the righteous will reply, 'did we see Thee hungry, and feed Thee; or thirsty, and give Thee drink? When did we see Thee homeless, and give Thee a welcome? or ill-clad, and clothe Thee? When did we see Thee sick or in prison, and come to see Thee?'

"But the King will answer them, "'In solemn truth I tell you that in so far as you rendered such services to one of the humblest of these my brethren, you rendered them to myself.'

"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For when I was hungry, you gave me nothing to eat; when thirsty, you gave me nothing to drink; when homeless, you gave me no welcome; ill-clad, you clothed me not; sick or in prison, you visited me not.'

"Then will they also answer, "'Lord, when did we see Thee hungry or thirsty or homeless or ill-clad or sick or in prison, and not come to serve Thee?'

"But he will reply, "'In solemn truth I tell you that in so far as you withheld such services from one of the humblest of these, you withheld them from me.'

"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
(Mat 25:31-46 WNT)

This is talking about the Kingdom Age....we call it the Millenium most times today. Not all are included during that age.

 

[Solaris]

Tormentor suggests active involvement. Its more a fire and forget.

Does it make it easier for you to view it this way? If a human being throws another into a furnace and then forgets about it is that human not still a sadistic murderer? Your analogy here holds no water,

The lake is described as a real place of torment. You are so weak in your faith that you are unwilling to accept that God will judge and that that judgement is permenant and painful. Debateit all you want bu t the lake will be created as described in revelations and Jesus will populate as described in Mathew 25.

And you will continue to bury your head in the sand with the explanations provided for all of the above, you limit God, you limit his love, his will and his power, fact...you've already stated that God didnt come to save every person no matter what, you really might want to reavualte just that comment alone.

 

[Solaris]

It ias much more selfish than that. Whoever else may or may not be there makes no difference. What is in YOUR future. Do YOU want to avoid the lake? Its not about whos in hell, its about you in hell.

This one post right here just sums up how dark and sickening this doctrine you hold to actually is, its quite a running theme with eternal torment, Aimiel believes himself capable of actually throwing people into a literal lake of fire, did you know that? Could you do this also do you think?

 

[Balder]

Interesting...the universalist heretics and pagans are arguing for an altruistic perspective and the mainstream Christians are urging us to take a more selfish one!

 

[Nineveh]

Interesting...the universalist heretics and pagans are arguing for an altruistic perspective and the mainstream Christians are urging us to take a more selfish one!

Selfish how? By denying your God because not everyone wants what you do? That's pretty selfish.

Rather Christians want everyone to accept Christ so they don't have to be away from God forever. But it's up to their own hearts to believe.

Odd you see your personal selfishness as more altruistic.

 

[Balder]

I was referring to CabinetMaker's post:

It is much more selfish than that. Whoever else may or may not be there makes no difference. What is in YOUR future. Do YOU want to avoid the lake? Its not about whos in hell, its about you in hell.

 

[Nineveh]

You made your reply plural. "Christians". My post was to you, balder.

 

[logos_x]

Eternal torment proves how unselfish you are?

 

[Ecumenicist]

So you don't believe that people go to any sort of hell for any sort of time at all. If universal salvation occured at the cross, why did the Apostles waste all that time evangilizing? Why did Jesus waste His breath giving us the Great Commission? None of it matters in your theology.

It is amazing how far people are willing to twist scripture to make it fit their comfrotable little world.

If you had a billion dollars in a bank account in your name, but you weren't aware of
it, what good would it do you? That's what the great Commission is about, sharing the
good news!

It all matters.

 

[Balder]

You made your reply plural. "Christians". My post was to you, balder.

Do you believe that everyone who doesn't believe as you do deserves to be punished and to suffer forever?