BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

For God to be ALL IN ALL does not mean subjegation "away" from God!

Are with God right now? Does that mean you are not subject to Him right now? I will not let you answer direct questions with meaningless platitudes.

So you believe that God has planned ALL things in accordance with his will and that he envisaged and planned for a place of torment to exist for billions of people?

Yes.

And that this God is love? Please dont say that the lake of fire was never intended for man, if the majority of men are going to end up there then this is part of God's will.

Gods love is that there is a way to avoid it. There is also a time limit of one life-time to accept God offer.

Can you explain to me in precise terms just what the lake of fire is?

It does not exist yet. The book of Revelations talks about its creation. I do not know exactly what it is nor do I a first hand oportunity to find out.

I believe that God has worked all things out, that his will is fulfilled, that there will be no more suffering/evil or sin as its declared, that God is the saviour of all men to be testified to in its proper time. You on the other hand would sooner believe God to be an eternal torturer satisfied with having billions of people suffer interminably and for no purpose, no reason at all......for ever.

There is a reason and it is a reason you totally deny. God sent His only begotten Son so that whoever believes will be saved. Note that the words all men is not in that sentence. Note also in Mathew 25 Jesus judges the sheeps and the goats and goats roast.

Jesus himself knew the fallibility of man when the disciples approached him with just such concerns. He said that with God all kinds of things are possible, are they?

God can do anything. God has told us what He will do. It is possible for the rich man to be saved. If the rich man is not saved he will be judged a goat and sent to raost.

I'm sorry you believe in such a message of abject misery and horror and that you attribute it to the God of love,

I'm soory you reject the Gospel of Jesus.

By the way, I am still waiting for you to show me a verse where it teaches we will have a second chance after we die to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour? Are you still searching? If you can find it I will call you my teacher and repent of my belief in eternal hell.

 

[logos_x]

:rotfl:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Is the only point of evangelising to warn people away from eternal torment? Let me tell you something, I've encountered misery of all kinds during my travels in this life and life is no picnic for MANY people in this world, bringing a message of hope is something that should be MORE THAN ENOUGH to think is worth spreading a message of the existence of God,
Its just as amazing that people would sooner paint God out to be sadistic/eternal barbarous torturer than take the time to dismantle and question their own ingrained teachings when its so blatantly obvious that a God of love would do no such thing,

You willing deny the whole of Gods character. He is also a od of wrath and judgement and vengence. Universalism does not offer hope, it offeres damnation. It does real damage.

I have seen this in the step-son of my friend. The boy is involved in drugs and alcohol and its doing real damage. There is good chance he will not graduate high school and he has already spent three years in jail. He's no worried because he figures he will have a second chance when he dies so he might as well enjoy life on his own terms. It doesn't matter. If he dies believing that you and people like you are teaching truth only to find he was deceived he is lost to hell and it is your fault!

That is the damage of Universalism and why it serves Satan. I tell people you are in or you are out. Either way its forever. You tell them that they will ultimatly get out and you cannot point out one single verse to support your teaching. You twist God is All in All into something it does not mean.

 

[CabinetMaker]

:rotfl:

You laugh and yet you have not yet shown me a verse saying that you get a second chance after you die. Show me and I will become your student. I am expecting a verse like those of Jesus speaking in Mathew 25. Clear and concise.

 

[Solaris]

Are with God right now? Does that mean you are not subject to Him right now? I will not let you answer direct questions with meaningless platitudes.

Yes, isnt God's kingdom from within? I'm soory you think I was using plattitudes, this should be direct enough for you

Yes.

Then I'm truly sorry that you think that God finds the interminable suffering of billions of people not only acceptable but actually willed on his behalf

Gods love is that there is a way to avoid it. There is also a time limit of one life-time to accept God offer.
It does not exist yet. The book of Revelations talks about its creation. I do not know exactly what it is nor do I a first hand oportunity to find out.

How loving it is to create a place of unimaginable endless torment in the first place! what a warped definition of love

There is a reason and it is a reason you totally deny. God sent His only begotten Son so that whoever believes will be saved. Note that the words all men is not in that sentence. Note also in Mathew 25 Jesus judges the sheeps and the goats and goats roast.
God can do anything. God has told us what He will do. It is possible for the rich man to be saved. If the rich man is not saved he will be judged a goat and sent to raost.
I'm soory you reject the Gospel of Jesus.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a literal depiction of hell! Look at the symbolism of the passage regarding the sheep and the goats! In your system God CANNOT do anything, you already decree that God is going to "roast" people whether God wills all men to be saved or not, that his answer to the disciples regarding the salvic issue is just swept under the carpet, I'm sorry that you find the belief that God not only came to save the world but actually did it rejecting the gospel! How heinous it is to believe that God can actually restore everything he put his hand to!

By the way, I am still waiting for you to show me a verse where it teaches we will have a second chance after we die to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour? Are you still searching? If you can find it I will call you my teacher and repent of my belief in eternal hell.[/QUOTE]

I would never want you to call me your teacher, the abundance of scriptures that have been shown already indicate that God has a plan from the outset that ultimately ends up with everything being in subjegation to himself and God being all in all, thats irrespective of the ones that speak of God's will in having his creation to be saved, his knowledge of the fallibility of mankind, all things being possible with God, his ransom for all to be testified. You just wont let your limiting doctrines allow you to see that God's love is so much more than you can believe it to be,

 

[logos_x]

You laugh and yet you have not yet shown me a verse saying that you get a second chance after you die. Show me and I will become your student. I am expecting a verse like those of Jesus speaking in Mathew 25. Clear and concise.

Why do you think it requires a "second chance"?

Jesus is lord of both the living and the dead. (Rom 14:9) He being the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25) He has the keys of Hell and of death. (Rev 1:18) When all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:28) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph 1:10) Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. (1Ti 4:10)

You apparently don't believe what these scriptures say...they have all been cited many times...and this is only because you believe in a permanent unending lake of fire that in no way facilitates what these scriptures and countless others proclaim.

Every knee will bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord...but in your view that makes no difference at all. Apparently Jesus intends to carry out what that Devil wanted to accomplish, rather than what God wants Him to accomplish.

 

[Solaris]

You willing deny the whole of Gods character. He is also a od of wrath and judgement and vengence. Universalism does not offer hope, it offeres damnation. It does real damage.

That is just not the case! i just do not believe that God's love is outdone by his wrath and his vengeance as is the case for eternal torment to be true! Rather I believe that God's wrath and vengeance are borne out of his overriding LOVE, tell me, when a parent is wrathful with a child and punishes them does it make their love for the child any the less? Is that parent suddenly not a loving parent anymore but purely one of wrath?! Of course not!! And as God is described TWICE IN THE WORD AS LOVE then its fair to say that God will not retain his anger for ever and that his anger serves a purpose...
And eternal torment is something that offers no hope, just pain/misery and unending despair, it does far more damage than you seem to realise in bringing people to faith, I've met and know of several who are utterly bewildered and sickened by the doctrine to the extent that belief in Christianity is a no go including my parents, what hope is there to offer people who have lost their parents themselves when a church tells them they're awaiting eternal pain at the hands of a loving God?

I have seen this in the step-son of my friend. The boy is involved in drugs and alcohol and its doing real damage. There is good chance he will not graduate high school and he has already spent three years in jail. He's no worried because he figures he will have a second chance when he dies so he might as well enjoy life on his own terms. It doesn't matter. If he dies believing that you and people like you are teaching truth only to find he was deceived he is lost to hell and it is your fault!

Read the above, the doctrine of eternal torment drives more people away from belief than anything else! It relies on fear tactics and subversion to 'draw' people to faith, and do you really think that God would leave the eternal destiny of another in the hands of another man? That actually makes more of a mockery of Jesus sacrifice than anything else! Suddenly its not so much what Jesus did and said its more to do with what a human being preaches or doesnt preach to another that saves people! Can you not see how contradictory your statement is? Is salvation anything a man can boast about? Is it not God who does the work?

That is the damage of Universalism and why it serves Satan. I tell people you are in or you are out. Either way its forever. You tell them that they will ultimatly get out and you cannot point out one single verse to support your teaching. You twist God is All in All into something it does not mean.

What does God being all in all mean if not what it says? The damage of eternal torment is that it puts people off and makes no sense, it means families and loved ones ripped apart, all hope gone, sin never destroyed, endless suffering for no purpose, God managing to save around 20% or so of his world, very 'good news' that is...

 

[CabinetMaker]

Why do you think it requires a "second chance"?

Well, for one, the first discussion you and I ever had had you telling me that people get a second chance when they are in the lake of fire.

Jesus is lord of both the living and the dead. (Rom 14:9)

True. Note that that verse does not sat that all the living and all the dead are with Jesus. Case in point, you are not with Jesus right now but He is, nominally, still your Lord.

He being the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25){/quote]True.

He has the keys of Hell and of death. (Rev 1:18)

True meaning He open the gates of hell (not the lake of fire hell) and brings forth those who are there to their final judgement.

When all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:28)

The proceeding verse talks about Jesus destroying His enemies. Look at Revelations. Death is destroyed AFTER the judgement. God is still all in all for the lake of fire is Gods creatioin and those in it are still subject to God.

That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph 1:10) Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. (1Ti 4:10)

Jesus did come for all men but only those who accept His salvation and believe receive that salvation.

You apparently don't believe what these scriptures say...they have all been cited many times...and this is only because you believe in a permanent unending lake of fire that in no way facilitates what these scriptures and countless others proclaim.

I don't believe what you say scripture means. Almost everytime a believer posts a verse they take it out of context or twist the meanings of words to make it say something it does not.

Every knee will bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord...but in your view that makes no difference at all. Apparently Jesus intends to carry out what that Devil wanted to accomplish, rather than what God wants Him to accomplish.

Even prisoners can confess that a king is a king. It does not mean that the king must let them go. Even Satan confesses the Jesus is Lord but Satan is still in active rebelion against God.

You will continue to believe this until you understand what Jesus was sent to accomplish. He did not come to save every man no matter what. He came to destroy the wall of sin that seperates the hearts of men from the heart of God so that each of us can enter into a personal saving relationship with God that was never possible before. Salvation is not the greatest thing to have, a personal relationship with God is the greatest treasure possible. Salvation is just the icing on the cake.

 

[Solaris]

You willing deny the whole of Gods character. He is also a od of wrath and judgement and vengence. Universalism does not offer hope, it offeres damnation. It does real damage.

I have seen this in the step-son of my friend. The boy is involved in drugs and alcohol and its doing real damage. There is good chance he will not graduate high school and he has already spent three years in jail. He's no worried because he figures he will have a second chance when he dies so he might as well enjoy life on his own terms. It doesn't matter. If he dies believing that you and people like you are teaching truth only to find he was deceived he is lost to hell and it is your fault!

That is the damage of Universalism and why it serves Satan. I tell people you are in or you are out. Either way its forever. You tell them that they will ultimatly get out and you cannot point out one single verse to support your teaching. You twist God is All in All into something it does not mean.

By the way i'm sorry to hear about the step son of your friend, I hope he gets the help he needs to overcome the alcohol and drugs before his life is threatened by his addictions

 

[logos_x]

So, C.M....do you really think that Jesus being 100% successful in saving the world is what caused this friend of yours to turn to drugs and alcohol? Do you think a belief in an unending Hell would have prevented his taking that direction?

Obviously, there are much deeper issues here on this one.

Truth is...he probably doesn't believe that God loves him at all, and doesn't care what he does. I don't think the doctrine of eternal torment would convince him that He does.

 

[logos_x]

Well, for one, the first discussion you and I ever had had you telling me that people get a second chance when they are in the lake of fire.

True. Note that that verse does not sat that all the living and all the dead are with Jesus. Case in point, you are not with Jesus right now but He is, nominally, still your Lord.

He being the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25){/quote]True.
True meaning He open the gates of hell (not the lake of fire hell) and brings forth those who are there to their final judgement.
The proceeding verse talks about Jesus destroying His enemies. Look at Revelations. Death is destroyed AFTER the judgement. God is still all in all for the lake of fire is Gods creatioin and those in it are still subject to God.
Jesus did come for all men but only those who accept His salvation and believe receive that salvation.

I don't believe what you say scripture means. Almost everytime a believer posts a verse they take it out of context or twist the meanings of words to make it say something it does not.


Even prisoners can confess that a king is a king. It does not mean that the king must let them go. Even Satan confesses the Jesus is Lord but Satan is still in active rebelion against God.

You will continue to believe this until you understand what Jesus was sent to accomplish. He did not come to save every man no matter what. He came to destroy the wall of sin that seperates the hearts of men from the heart of God so that each of us can enter into a personal saving relationship with God that was never possible before. Salvation is not the greatest thing to have, a personal relationship with God is the greatest treasure possible. Salvation is just the icing on the cake.

So...every knee bowing and every tongue confessing will be to their eternal jailer. :think:

That's good news there...ain't it?

 

[logos_x]

Salvation is not the greatest thing to have, a personal relationship with God is the greatest treasure possible. Salvation is just the icing on the cake.

Salvation and a personal relationship with God are the same thing.

 

[CabinetMaker]

That is just not the case! i just do not believe that God's love is outdone by his wrath and his vengeance as is the case for eternal torment to be true! Rather I believe that God's wrath and vengeance are borne out of his overriding LOVE, tell me, when a parent is wrathful with a child and punishes them does it make their love for the child any the less? Is that parent suddenly not a loving parent anymore but purely one of wrath?! Of course not!! And as God is described TWICE IN THE WORD AS LOVE then its fair to say that God will not retain his anger for ever and that his anger serves a purpose...
And eternal torment is something that offers no hope, just pain/misery and unending despair, it does far more damage than you seem to realise in bringing people to faith, I've met and know of several who are utterly bewildered and sickened by the doctrine to the extent that belief in Christianity is a no go including my parents, what hope is there to offer people who have lost their parents themselves when a church tells them they're awaiting eternal pain at the hands of a loving God?



Read the above, the doctrine of eternal torment drives more people away from belief than anything else! It relies on fear tactics and subversion to 'draw' people to faith, and do you really think that God would leave the eternal destiny of another in the hands of another man? That actually makes more of a mockery of Jesus sacrifice than anything else! Suddenly its not so much what Jesus did and said its more to do with what a human being preaches or doesnt preach to another that saves people! Can you not see how contradictory your statement is? Is salvation anything a man can boast about? Is it not God who does the work?



What does God being all in all mean if not what it says? The damage of eternal torment is that it puts people off and makes no sense, it means families and loved ones ripped apart, all hope gone, sin never destroyed, endless suffering for no purpose, God managing to save around 20% or so of his world, very 'good news' that is...

It means you reject the Gospel of Jesus.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So, C.M....do you really think that Jesus being 100% successful in saving the world is what caused this friend of yours to turn to drugs and alcohol? Do you think a belief in an unending Hell would have prevented his taking that direction?

If he understood the eternal consequences for his choices then he might give them the consideration they are due. Instead he has fallen for this feel good lie of universalism thinking he can do what ever he wants now and still go to heaven. Our actions have consequences and some of them last forever.

Obviously, there are much deeper issues here on this one.

Obviously. The

Truth is...he probably doesn't believe that God loves him at all, and doesn't care what he does. I don't think the doctrine of eternal torment would convince him that He does.

Truth is, I don't think he cares one way or the other about Gods love. If he dies with that attitude then God will judge him a goat and send him to the lake. It is a terrible thought but it is the truth.

 

[Solaris]

You will continue to believe this until you understand what Jesus was sent to accomplish. He did not come to save every man no matter what. He came to destroy the wall of sin that seperates the hearts of men from the heart of God so that each of us can enter into a personal saving relationship with God that was never possible before. Salvation is not the greatest thing to have, a personal relationship with God is the greatest treasure possible. Salvation is just the icing on the cake.

Unfortunately you've made yourself very clear in this one paragraph, 'he did not come to save every man no matter what'. Well I'm sorry but I recall Jesus saying he came to DO JUST THAT. That he came not to judge the world but to save it , that he gave himself as ransom for ALL to be testified in its proper time, that he died as a propiation for the SINS OF THE WORLD. i'm afraid I'll go with the word on this one no matter how many limitations you may wish to put on Jesus's intent.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Salvation and a personal relationship with God are the same thing.

NO, they are not. A relationship is a relationship. You know, conversations (prayer) with God and listening to what He says. Salvation is a gift of eternal life with God and Jesus in heaven. They are related but they are not the same thing.

 

[Solaris]

It means you reject the Gospel of Jesus.

To believe that God can be 100% sucessful in fulfilling his intent is to reject the gospel? Is this the only answer you have left to give? i'm sorry you limit God to the massive extent in which you do

 

[Solaris]

If he understood the eternal consequences for his choices then he might give them the consideration they are due. Instead he has fallen for this feel good lie of universalism thinking he can do what ever he wants now and still go to heaven. Our actions have consequences and some of them last forever.

Obviously. The


Truth is, I don't think he cares one way or the other about Gods love. If he dies with that attitude then God will judge him a goat and send him to the lake. It is a terrible thought but it is the truth.

Your message is so despairing and futile, I feel sorry that your view of God is so dark and bleak

 

[CabinetMaker]

Unfortunately you've made yourself very clear in this one paragraph, 'he did not come to save every man no matter what'. Well I'm sorry but I recall Jesus saying he came to DO JUST THAT. That he came not to judge the world but to save it , that he gave himself as ransom for ALL to be testified in its proper time, that he died as a propiation for the SINS OF THE WORLD. i'm afraid I'll go with the word on this one no matter how many limitations you may wish to put on Jesus's intent.

I suggest you read the rest of what Jesus said. Have you read Mathew 25? Salvation is not a free gift that everybody automatically gets. Forgiveness of their sins against the law is as that is what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Salvation is not. Look at mathew 25. People are sent tot he lake of fire. Look at revelations. The lake of fire lasts forever and people are sent to it before death is destroyed. It is described as the second death and it is final.

 

[logos_x]

If he understood the eternal consequences for his choices then he might give them the consideration they are due. Instead he has fallen for this feel good lie of universalism thinking he can do what ever he wants now and still go to heaven. Our actions have consequences and some of them last forever.

Obviously. The


Truth is, I don't think he cares one way or the other about Gods love. If he dies with that attitude then God will judge him a goat and send him to the lake. It is a terrible thought but it is the truth.

Except...that Jesus is the savior of all men IS the Gospel.

An eternal hell would not save him. Grace will.

I'm sorry for your friend's step son. But it isn't Universal salvation that is to blame for this. I could tell you of a lot of people that have done the same thing while believing in an eternal Hell. I can even cite a story of a pastor of a mega-church in Colorado who taught of an eternal Hell while buying drugs from a homosexual prostitute.

The effectivness of the doctrine is not what you think it is.