BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

Suffering here and now matters. Its not about the destination, its about the journey.

Accepting the gift here and now relieves suffering here and now.

I wish. My wife and I have both accepted Christ. She still went through breast cancer. The treatments were physically hard on her and the emotions were hard on the entire familly. We suffered. We were and are faithful because God is with us and has taught us patience and reliance on God. Accepting Jesus is not a magic bullet the instantly clears up every problem you have in life. They remain. You know have a source of strenght who is in your heart and gives you what you need to get through lifes trials and tribulations.

You know, this brings up an interesting point, Balder might find it interesting as well.

In my experience working with people of faith, its common to hear people who need
counseling help having an attitude of "surrender to suffering" because according to their
interpretation of Scripture, suffering here and now is temporary compared to eternity.

This surrender to suffering is also considered a symptom of depression, and the ideation
that such suffering can only be mitigated in eternity can lead to self destructive ideations.

I don't think this is the way God intends that we interpret Scripture. God demands
mercy, and not sacrifice...

God demands sacrifice. Remember Jesus told the rich man to sell all his positions and give the money to the poor to be a ture follower. That is a sacrifice, a sacrifice that man was not able to make. It may not be money for you, it may be your career, it may be clothes. God wants us to sacrifice our dependance on the things of this world for dependance upon him.

 

[Nineveh]

I don't believe that is the way that God meant for us to presume to know truth, by perverting Scripture. He demands that we be merciful (otherwise police might be empowered to shoot to kill jaywalkers) but He also demands that justice be fulfilled, which is why sin results in death. Otherwise, why didn't He act out of this 'mercy' you proclaim and allow the 'cup' of Calvary to pass from in front of Jesus without Him having to taste of it? He will have mercy upon those who are pleasing to Him, but will visit the iniquities of the fathers upon the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him. Repent of your hatred and stop perverting Scripture.

Well said!

 

[Aimiel]

Thanks, Nineveh. Keep on keepin' on. Your posts are very uplifting. Without your posts, I would have left this thread long ago. I enjoy the points you bring up. :thumb:

 

[PKevman]

Actually, the opposite it true in your view. Once dead, the future slams shut, never to be opened again, and that "end point" is predefined and nothing you could possibly do would change it in the tiniest way...."forever". Only the elect are EVER saved, the rest NEVER are.

Follow your doctrine to it's end and that is what you will find. Only the elect have an open future, the rest cannot have anything because they die, and death has victory forever over them.

Just out of curiosity, your great derision towards people who believe that unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, in my opinion, far outweighs what you say to unbelievers and people such as Balder who utterly reject Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

So what is worse Stephen, a person who believes the Bible means what it says about unbelievers spending eternity apart from God in the Lake of Fire, or a person who utterly rejects Jesus Christ as the only way to a relationship with God? I think your prior statements a few pages back in regards to Balder revealed a lot about your theology that has thus far been hidden in your overt statements.

 

[logos_x]

Just out of curiosity, your great derision towards people who believe that unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, in my opinion, far outweighs what you say to unbelievers and people such as Balder who utterly reject Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

So what is worse Stephen, a person who believes the Bible means what it says about unbelievers spending eternity apart from God in the Lake of Fire, or a person who utterly rejects Jesus Christ as the only way to a relationship with God? I think your prior statements a few pages back in regards to Balder revealed a lot about your theology that has thus far been hidden in your overt statements.

Well, if I thought that balder utterly rejects Jesus Christ then I would understand your concernes.

What Balder has rejected is a teaching about Christ...which is something I myself have done on numerous occasions, and I'm sure you have, too.

I believe Balder would be far more inclined to a Christianity that is free from all the baggage that has been hung onto the gospel by the traditions of men through the years.
Of that baggage, the doctrine of eternal torment represents the biggest and most diabolical.

Maybe you should see how balder would respond, first, before you try to make it sound as though the doctrine of eternal torment is a necessary theological position for all christians to embrace. Thank you.

 

[PKevman]

Where I disagree with your approach to this is you seem to believe that dave and balder have rejected Christ, whereas I see that as untrue, what has been rejected is a religious system that names the name of Christ...but is the product of an apostate church.

Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There is no other way. If Balder rejects Jesus Christ then he rejects the only way God has provided whereby men can be made right with Him.

I pray that Balder returns to a proclamation of the Gospel. I think he has brought Christ with Him in his seeking out what a clear message that proclaims Christ would be. I don't think Christ has abandoned him.

This makes it clear where you stand. A person can be a Buddhist and bring Christ with him? Wrong.
Or is rejection of eternal torment salvation Stephen? You equate salvation to Balder because he rejects eternal torment?

Please answer me a question clearly:

IS BELIEF IN THE SALVATION OF ALL (i.e. Universal Reconciliation) THE GOSPEL? Is THAT what saves a person?

 

[PKevman]

Well, if I thought that balder unterly rejects Jesus Christ then I would understand your concernes.

What Balder has rejected is a teaching about Christ...which is something I myself have done on numerous occasions, and I'm sure you have, too.

I believe Balder would be far more inclined to a Christianity that is free from all the baggage that has been hung onto the gospel by the traditions of men through the years.
Of that baggage, the doctrine of eternal torment represents the biggest and most diabolical.

Maybe you should see how balder would respond, first, before you try to make it sound as though the doctrine of eternal torment is a necessary theological position for all christians to embrace. Thank you.

My concern is what God thinks, not what people think. My concern is what God says, not what Balder says or what you say.

 

[PKevman]

Jesus taught us that compared to our love for Him our love for anyone or anything in our life should be like hate. We should not be willing to allow anything at all to come between us and our Lord. My concern through all of this is what does Jesus say? We have examined what Jesus CLEARLY said on the subject, and no amount of conjecturalizing and arguments are going to explain away the clear words of the Lord.

 

[PKevman]

Well, if I thought that balder utterly rejects Jesus Christ then I would understand your concernes.

So is it your contention here before these people that Buddhism and Christianity are completely compatible as long as someone accepts Universal Salvation for all and rejects Eternal Torment? If so please say so clearly so that I can know your position.

What Balder has rejected is a teaching about Christ...which is something I myself have done on numerous occasions, and I'm sure you have, too.

Is rejecting the fact that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that He is the only way to God rejecting a "teaching about Christ"?

I believe Balder would be far more inclined to a Christianity that is free from all the baggage that has been hung onto the gospel by the traditions of men through the years.
Of that baggage, the doctrine of eternal torment represents the biggest and most diabolical.

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Maybe you should see how balder would respond, first, before you try to make it sound as though the doctrine of eternal torment is a necessary theological position for all christians to embrace. Thank you.

The fact that man is sinful and that Jesus Christ is God, and that He is the only way to Heaven is the most necessary theological position for all to embrace in order to be called Christians.

 

[logos_x]

Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There is no other way. If Balder rejects Jesus Christ then he rejects the only way God has provided whereby men can be made right with Him.

I agree

This makes it clear where you stand. A person can be a Buddhist and bring Christ with him? Wrong.

What alienated him Kevin? Was it Christ and His message and accomplishments...or what your theological system says the outcome will be?

Or is rejection of eternal torment salvation Stephen? You equate salvation to Balder because he rejects eternal torment?

Of course not. I just understand why he left the current religious system, and I don't equate that with leaving Christ Himself, certainly not forever at least. I see the best possibility for Balder's finding his way with Christ is by understanding the nature of the current teaching in the tradition compared to what was REALLY said.

Please answer me a question clearly:

IS BELIEF IN THE SALVATION OF ALL (i.e. Universal Reconciliation) THE GOSPEL? Is THAT what saves a person?

Gospel means "good news". Yes, the belief in the salvation of all is the Gospel. The traditions of men have obscured that message.

What saves a person is God's active Grace, which works through faith.

Is belief in eternal torment the gospel? Is THAT what saves a person?

 

[Solaris]

eternal torment is single handedly the most alienating doctrine that there is, among the people that I know it is the most baffling nonsensical horror that is being attributed to an almighty creator, is it any wonder most people reject a message that is wrapped up in fear/pain and despair? A loving God who has billions of his own beings kept in a state of agony for eternity? Even as human beings our conscience tells us that to torture or torment another person is morally wrong, that to cause agony to another is sadistic cruelty and yet this is the picture that traditional Christianity paints of God, an ogre who creates a world with the full intent of torturing most of it for no constructive purpose at all.
:doh:

 

[PKevman]

this is the picture that traditional Christianity paints of God, an ogre who creates a world with the full intent of torturing most of it for no constructive purpose at all.
:doh:

The Settled View strikes again. We don't believe that God created "a world with the full intent of torturing most of it". Solaris we believe that God created the world perfect and without sin. God created a bunch of angels and all of them were without sin. And yet Satan CHOSE to sin. Adam CHOSE to sin. God didn't WANT that for them! God didn't even create the Lake of Fire with people in mind, but rather for Satan and the fallen angels INITIALLY.

The problem that you folks have is you are attempting to argue positions that we do not even hold.

 

[PKevman]

What alienated him Kevin? Was it Christ and His message and accomplishments...or what your theological system says the outcome will be?

People make a bunch of excuses fo rejecting Biblical Christianity. Most religions refuse to accept that Jesus is the only way to Heaven or that He is God. Do you believe that Jesus is God Stephen?
Do YOU believe that He is the ONLY way to Heaven?

Of course not. I just understand why he left the current religious system,

No you just affirmed his excuse for him and basically told him he was right for rejecting what those big bad ETER's have to say.

and I don't equate that with leaving Christ Himself, certainly not forever at least. I see the best possibility for Balder's finding his way with Christ is by understanding the nature of the current teaching in the tradition compared to what was REALLY said.

In a roundabout way you are saying if he accepts Universal Reconciliation he will be saved. Right?

Gospel means "good news". Yes, the belief in the salvation of all is the Gospel.

There we have it. Thank you for finally admitting that is what you believe.

The traditions of men have obscured that message.

No the Bible has shown it to be wrong! The belief in the salvation of all is NOT the Gospel.

What saves a person is God's active Grace, which works through faith.

According to what you just said it is through faith in the salvation of all which IS the Gospel.

Is belief in eternal torment the gospel? Is THAT what saves a person?

Nope and I never said such a thing, unlike what you just admitted, that belief in the salvation of all is the Gospel!

 

[Solaris]

The Settled View strikes again. We don't believe that God created "a world with the full intent of torturing most of it". Solaris we believe that God created the world perfect and without sin. God created a bunch of angels and all of them were without sin. And yet Satan CHOSE to sin. Adam CHOSE to sin. God didn't WANT that for them! God didn't even create the Lake of Fire with people in mind, but rather for Satan and the fallen angels INITIALLY.

The problem that you folks have is you are attempting to argue positions that we do not even hold.

Are you trying to say that God didnt realise from the outset the eventual outcome of his creation? That does not make sense, did God not know that Adam would fall? It doesnt really make sense to say that God 'initially' created the lake of fire just for the fallen angels when he would have kown full well that he was going to consign billions of people into endless agony as well! The problem here is that we're forced to assume that going by eternal torments standpoint that God finds it more than acceptable to create a world where endless suffering for many many people is a direct result. and as I've already explained, the vast majority of people find the idea repulsive both morally and logically, we're programmed to find sadistic cruelty reprehensible and wrong, and with good reason. Like it or not this doctrine single handedly alienates many many people as messages of hoplessness and despair invariably do...

 

[Solaris]

Actually pastor Kevin I hope you can still explain how the verses containg weeping and gnashing of teeth are directly related to the lake of fire, I did reply back to your post but it may well have been missed given the length of this thread, I found four references in Matthew and one in Luke in where this phrase appears but no direct mention of the lake, can you explain how you arrive at this conclusion?

 

[PKevman]

Actually pastor Kevin I hope you can still explain how the verses containg weeping and gnashing of teeth are directly related to the lake of fire, I did reply back to your post but it may well have been missed given the length of this thread, I found four references in Matthew and one in Luke in where this phrase appears but no direct mention of the lake, can you explain how you arrive at this conclusion?

We have already been down this road before in other threads. I know that those who deny that the Lake of Fire is eternal will attempt to say that this isn't in regards to the Lake of Fire. But it is only because they are purposely trying to ignore it.

Do you not see references to hell and a fiery furnace, outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? Are you reading a different Bible?

It is also the place of hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In fact just in the book of Matthew alone there are SCORES of mentions of eternal punishment from the LORD Himself!

Matthew 3:10

10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:12

12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”


Matthew 5:30

30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 7:19

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 8:12

12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 10:28

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

WHERE WILL THERE BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH?

Matthew 13:50

50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”


Matthew 13:40

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Matthew 18:8-9

8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 22:13

13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Being cast into outer darkness=being cast into the Lake of Fire, the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! It is the same event that these Scriptures are speaking of. You would have to be hard-hearted (or headed) to deny this.

Here are some further quotes from the Lord Jesus JUST FROM THE BOOK OF MATTHEW ALONE!

23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

24:51 " … and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus spoke about eternal punishment frequently. He would not be accepted by the Universalists who post on this website. I implore you to seek God in His Word alone and ignore what other people are telling you.

In the love of Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior,

Kevin

 

[Ecumenicist]

I wish. My wife and I have both accepted Christ. She still went through breast cancer. The treatments were physically hard on her and the emotions were hard on the entire familly. We suffered. We were and are faithful because God is with us and has taught us patience and reliance on God. Accepting Jesus is not a magic bullet the instantly clears up every problem you have in life. They remain. You know have a source of strenght who is in your heart and gives you what you need to get through lifes trials and tribulations.

Of course, you give a personal example which I appreciate deeply. I may have overstated,
of course problems don't disappear for the faithful, but imagine what that experience
would have been like had you not had the gift of Savlation to help carry you through.
That's the difference, despite hers and your suffering, knowledge of God's certain gifts
in the bad times makes the suffering bearable, in the good times inspires rejoicing
unmatched from the "unfaithful" perspective

God demands sacrifice. Remember Jesus told the rich man to sell all his positions and give the money to the poor to be a ture follower. That is a sacrifice, a sacrifice that man was not able to make. It may not be money for you, it may be your career, it may be clothes. God wants us to sacrifice our dependance on the things of this world for dependance upon him.

Another good point, but Jesus also said that He demands mercy and not sacrifice, so
any adequate interpretation must accommodate both admonitions.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I don't believe that is the way that God meant for us to presume to know truth, by perverting Scripture. He demands that we be merciful (otherwise police might be empowered to shoot to kill jaywalkers) but He also demands that justice be fulfilled, which is why sin results in death. Otherwise, why didn't He act out of this 'mercy' you proclaim and allow the 'cup' of Calvary to pass from in front of Jesus without Him having to taste of it? He will have mercy upon those who are pleasing to Him, but will visit the iniquities of the fathers upon the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him. Repent of your hatred and stop perverting Scripture.

This is one of the bizarest statements you've ever made Aimiel. Christ's sacrifice for
us was God's ultimate act of mercy towards us. God sacrificed God's self, in becoming
flesh, living, dieing, and being resurrected, in order that we may recognize God's Infinte
Mercy towards humanity.

 

[Aimiel]

This is one of the bizarest statements you've ever made Aimiel. Christ's sacrifice for us was God's ultimate act of mercy towards us. God sacrificed God's self, in becoming flesh, living, dieing, and being resurrected, in order that we may recognize God's Infinte Mercy towards humanity.

Again, your perverted take on what is written is made clear. It is God's Mercy that demands life for sin, the life of the sinner is sacrificed, unless He accepts Jesus' sacrifice in his place. We only recognize His Mercy in that sacrifice, if we believe upon Him Whom The Lord has sent. Those who don't believe don't have that mercy available to them, and believing that they will come to that knowledge after death is simply ludicrous. It isn't from Scripture, it is from hell.

 

[Nineveh]

IS BELIEF IN THE SALVATION OF ALL (i.e. Universal Reconciliation) THE GOSPEL? Is THAT what saves a person?

... Yes, the belief in the salvation of all is the Gospel.

Wowzers logos

What saves a person is God's active Grace, which works through faith.

Even if they don't have faith? Like balder?