BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[taoist]

Please, could we get away from the rape theme here? I don't think it's adding to the discussion at all. I know, in terms of OV and CV, I'm neither, but I just plain don't see how tossing in Nazis and and rapists is going to advance anybody's arguments. It just gets in the way for those of us trying to get a better understanding of your debate from the outside. Now the Judas theme, that was easy to follow at least.

Whatever.

:cheers:

 

[Z Man]

Far be it for humans to experience suffering, right OV'ers? I mean, who does God think He is to ordain that some guy be murdered, without giving him the chance he deserved to be saved? Or to have my daughter raped! She's my daughter, and God has no right to do anything to her that would offend me or hurt her!

... Please....

At least Job understood that suffering was a part of life, and that 'bad' things do happen to people on the account of God's will.

Job 1:20-22
Job stood up and tore his robe in grief. Then he shaved his head and fell to the ground before God. He said, "I came naked from my mother's womb, and I will be stripped of everything when I die. The LORD gave me everything I had, and the LORD has taken it away. Praise the name of the LORD!" In all of this, Job DID NOT SIN by blaming God.

 

[theo_victis]

It's sick..I don't believe he would ever say this to his kids.."It was God's perfect will for you to be raped, he planned it all out from the beginning, it's his way of blessing you!!"
"Jesus was treated much worse, who do you think you are!"

I agree. This is a MAJOR argument against CV.

 

[Turbo]

At least Job understood that suffering was a part of life, and that 'bad' things do happen to people on the account of God's will.

Job 1:20-22
Job stood up and tore his robe in grief. Then he shaved his head and fell to the ground before God. He said, "I came naked from my mother's womb, and I will be stripped of everything when I die. The LORD gave me everything I had, and the LORD has taken it away. Praise the name of the LORD!" In all of this, Job DID NOT SIN by blaming God.

Job did not sin by blaming God, but Z Man just did. :doh:

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. James 1:13​

You boast that all sin is God's will, but by definition sin is that which is contrary to God's will.

 

[Delmar]

Please, could we get away from the rape theme here? I don't think it's adding to the discussion at all. I know, in terms of OV and CV, I'm neither, but I just plain don't see how tossing in Nazis and and rapists is going to advance anybody's arguments. It just gets in the way for those of us trying to get a better understanding of your debate from the outside. Now the Judas theme, that was easy to follow at least.

Whatever.

:cheers:

The reason it is more useful to talk about rape than other crimes is that few could argue that it is not inherently evil. Whereas if someone argued that God predestined someone be murdered some could make the argument that God created that life and has the authority to take it.

 

[Ecumenicist]

God uses my righteousness and my sin to advance God's Will. Why is this so hard to
understand? And no, Jesus could not have been mistaken, no way, no how.

And Judas' sin was not disbelief, Judas was a believer. Judas' sin was trying to force Christ's
hand into revealing His Power in Judas' time, not God's time, to Judas' Will, not God's Will.
In a sense, it was Judas' faith that motivated him, just as it was Caiphas faith. In the end,
whatever the motivation, Judas' and Caiphas' sins were used to advance God's Will.

And regarding planes, rapes, and Hitler, God does not cause evil, but God does use evil to
advance God's Will, in the bigger picture, which we humans cannot always perceive.

Hitler's holocaust effectively ended, or at least interrupted 2000 years of genocide and persecution
against God's people.

The WTC planes effectively brought the hatred and conflict of the middle east to the world's
attention. We've yet to see how this plays out, but I guarantee it will play out to advance God's
Will.

As for rape, murder, individual acts of violence, each case tragic, horrible, but in the end God's
Will is advanced. Rapists and murderers are captured and incarcerated, healing takes place
in individuals and families who allow God into their hearts, God's Will is advanced.

There's only one thing more frightening than thinking that God allows attrocities, and that's
the thought that God has no control whatsoever against attrocities.

Dave

 

[Z Man]

God uses my righteousness and my sin to advance God's Will. Why is this so hard to
understand? And no, Jesus could not have been mistaken, no way, no how.

And Judas' sin was not disbelief, Judas was a believer. Judas' sin was trying to force Christ's
hand into revealing His Power in Judas' time, not God's time, to Judas' Will, not God's Will.
In a sense, it was Judas' faith that motivated him, just as it was Caiphas faith. In the end,
whatever the motivation, Judas' and Caiphas' sins were used to advance God's Will.

And regarding planes, rapes, and Hitler, God does not cause evil, but God does use evil to
advance God's Will, in the bigger picture, which we humans cannot always perceive.

Hitler's holocaust effectively ended, or at least interrupted 2000 years of genocide and persecution
against God's people.

The WTC planes effectively brought the hatred and conflict of the middle east to the world's
attention. We've yet to see how this plays out, but I guarantee it will play out to advance God's
Will.

As for rape, murder, individual acts of violence, each case tragic, horrible, but in the end God's
Will is advanced. Rapists and murderers are captured and incarcerated, healing takes place
in individuals and families who allow God into their hearts, God's Will is advanced.

There's only one thing more frightening than thinking that God allows attrocities, and that's
the thought that God has no control whatsoever against attrocities.

Dave

Amen Dave. It's nice to finally have some 'back-up'. :thumb:

 

[billygoat]

God's glory?

God's glory?

A man at our former church was burning weeds one day. He was using gasoline to do it. His little boy picked up the can of gasoline and spilled it on himself, then ran into the fire, and he was horribly, cruelly immolated.

Did God work this out to bring Himself Glory?

Anyone who says yes has a sick understanding of God.

Bad things happen, but for us to blame God for them is blasphemous and disgusting..

 

[novice]

Bad things happen, but for us to blame God for them is blasphemous and disgusting..

:up:

Not only that, but that viewpoint diminshes the responsibility of man and Satan and their wickedness.

The two possible subtitles for the Bible:

The Holy Bible
The story of man's complete disobedience towards God.

The Holy Bible
The story of man's complete obedience towards God.

:think:

 

[Truppenzwei]

:up:

Not only that, but that viewpoint diminshes the responsibility of man and Satan and their wickedness.

The two possible subtitles for the Bible:

The Holy Bible
The story of man's complete disobedience towards God.

The Holy Bible
The story of man's complete obedience towards God.

:think:

Or
The Holy Bible
The story of some people's obedience while others rebelled

 

[Ecumenicist]

A man at our former church was burning weeds one day. He was using gasoline to do it. His little boy picked up the can of gasoline and spilled it on himself, then ran into the fire, and he was horribly, cruelly immolated.

Did God work this out to bring Himself Glory?

Anyone who says yes has a sick understanding of God.

Bad things happen, but for us to blame God for them is blasphemous and disgusting..

God did not cause this to happen, but if hearts are open to the possibility, God will use
this terrible circumstance to further God's glory. By the way, burning anything with the
use of gasoline is a terrible idea, and God's Glory is furthered just by the telling of this
story, as it will hopefully prevent others from making the same mistake and suffering
the same consequences.

 

[Livewire]

The landlady asks the boarder to please refrain from his experiments at night because he is annoying the rest of the people who room there. That night, the renter gets a great idea,but instead of rushing downstairs to try out the experiment, he stays in bed until morning. He thinks that he has done the right thing of his own free will. What he does not know is that the landlady has locked the door from the outside so that he could not have gone downstairs if he had chosen to. Was the man’s choice free? I would say yes, because he did what he wanted to do. Bob would (I presume) say no because he did not have the ability to choose otherwise

This is a poor example if Dr. Lamerson feels it represents man having a choice while God orchestrates it simultaneously. How could he state that the tenant only thinks he has done the right thing of his own free will? The landlady had nothing to do with the tenant's choice to comply with her request. She simply put a lock on the door. His being none the wiser to this makes no difference. Man could freely decide to go against God by doing something sinful. God has the power to stop them by putting a barrier in their way if He wanted to but if He did this it still doesn't interfere with their choice that has already been made to go against Him.

Pharoah's men decided to go get the Israelites after Pharoah told them they could leave Egypt. God put a "lock on the door" by causing the sea to no longer be parted putting a barrier between them and what they wanted. But this barrier didn't take away from Pharoah and his men choosing to go after them. If some of Pharoah's men decided not to follow Pharoah's order to go after the Israelites and had no knowledge of the barrier did the barrier have anything to do with their choice not to go?

Adam and Eve made their choice to sin. But before they sinned, he wanted the door left wide open, desiring that they "not go downstairs" simply because they longed to do what He said.

 

[CRASH]

Idiot!

Idiot!

God did not cause this to happen, but if hearts are open to the possibility, God will use
this terrible circumstance to further God's glory. By the way, burning anything with the
use of gasoline is a terrible idea, and God's Glory is furthered just by the telling of this
story, as it will hopefully prevent others from making the same mistake and suffering
the same consequences.

Well no duh, God is our Comfortor when things go horribly wrong and we can all learn from others mistakes and of course God allows all this to happen - but that is all very different from what most of you CV/Calvinists believe which is that God pre-planned this horrible incident, He pre-ordained it and therefore obviously wanted this little boy to get burned in fire. THAT IS NOT THE GOD REVEALED IN THE BIBLE!!! Add to blasphemous and disgusting - SLANDER, against the living God, and willful ignorance! And while were at it, how about SAD - unbelievers look at these stupid, pagan explainations for evil and rightly say "you can have your god who ordained Hitler and the twin Towers, epidemic murder, rape and cancer!"

 

[elected4ever]

Well no duh, God is our Comforter when things go horribly wrong and we can all learn from others mistakes and of course God allows all this to happen

Well that much is true.

- but that is all very different from what most of you CV/Calvinists believe which is that God pre-planned this horrible incident, He pre-ordained it and therefore obviously wanted this little boy to get burned in fire.

That is one of the most brazen lie perpetrated by you Darbeist.

THAT IS NOT THE GOD REVEALED IN THE BIBLE!!!

Your right. That is not the God of the Bible

Add to blasphemous and disgusting - SLANDER, against the living God, and willful ignorance!

What you have accused me off and others that have similar belief is blasphemous, disgusting and slanderous and it is you who are willfully ignorant.

And while were at it, how about SAD - unbelievers look at these stupid, pagan explanations for evil and rightly say "you can have your god who ordained Hitler and the twin Towers, epidemic murder, rape and cancer!"

Oh, you son of Satan, will you ever cease to bring accusation against the children of God. Who are you to instruct God or bring accusation against His elect. It is obvious that you have your opinion but you have not the word to back you up. You can only bring accusation that you cannot back up. You have crashed and you my also burn.

 

[Agape4Robin]

A man at our former church was burning weeds one day. He was using gasoline to do it. His little boy picked up the can of gasoline and spilled it on himself, then ran into the fire, and he was horribly, cruelly immolated.

Did God work this out to bring Himself Glory?

Anyone who says yes has a sick understanding of God.

Bad things happen, but for us to blame God for them is blasphemous and disgusting..

Must be nice to have a god that thinks like you do..............

 

[Agape4Robin]

Well no duh, God is our Comfortor when things go horribly wrong and we can all learn from others mistakes and of course God allows all this to happen - but that is all very different from what most of you CV/Calvinists believe which is that God pre-planned this horrible incident, He pre-ordained it and therefore obviously wanted this little boy to get burned in fire. THAT IS NOT THE GOD REVEALED IN THE BIBLE!!! Add to blasphemous and disgusting - SLANDER, against the living God, and willful ignorance! And while were at it, how about SAD - unbelievers look at these stupid, pagan explainations for evil and rightly say "you can have your god who ordained Hitler and the twin Towers, epidemic murder, rape and cancer!"

Like I said to billygoat.......must be nice to have a god who thinks like you!

 

[drbrumley]

Oh, you son of Satan, will you ever cease to bring accusation against the children of God. Who are you to instruct God or bring accusation against His elect. It is obvious that you have your opinion but you have not the word to back you up. You can only bring accusation that you cannot back up. You have crashed and you my also burn.

Thats a bunch of crap and you know it.

 

[Bob Enyart]

I know I got lambasted (or is that Lamer... -nah) for my BAG quote...

I know I got lambasted (or is that Lamer... -nah) for my BAG quote...

Here’s a scan here of p. 171 of my hardcover, 1957 BAG (before Danker added his initial), which was an extremely well-received edition, though now superseded:

Notice something quite unusual? (And I’m grateful to you Sam for pointing it out to me.) The lexicon gives two different meanings for the exact same word in the same sentence! Dictionaries commonly give multiple meanings for a word, depending upon the context, but this is the first time I’ve noticed a lexicon giving two meanings for the same instance of a word. Thus, when I saw Acts 1:16 listed under “what is fitting,” I failed to look further (something that would never have occurred to me), to make sure it didn’t also appear with another definition. (I’d been bagd!) What does two definitions for the same word indicate?

I plan to address this in the Center Ring.

-Bob

 

[Poly]

That is one of the most brazen lie perpetrated by you Darbeist.

What you have accused me off and others that have similar belief is blasphemous, disgusting and slanderous and it is you who are willfully ignorant.

No, it appears to be the heartwrenching truth as is shown here by Zman's sarcastic response to those who do not feel that God orchestrates such things like rape and murder.

Far be it for humans to experience suffering, right OV'ers? I mean, who does God think He is to ordain that some guy be murdered, without giving him the chance he deserved to be saved? Or to have my daughter raped! She's my daughter, and God has no right to do anything to her that would offend me or hurt her!

... Please....

It tears my heart out that Zman can be so flippant in his attitude of God supposedly ordaining a person to be murdered or somebody's daughter to be raped. But as you can see, it's not disgusting and slanderous as you said above nor is it even an exaggeration. It's very common. I know many, many people personally with Zman's same attitude, and they also wouldn't hesitate to express it proudly just as he does.

 

[drbrumley]

Darbyists? I'm a Darbyist? Thought I was a Christian who follows my Lord Jesus Christ and read and STUDY the Word of God? Hmmmm guess I'm not to you.

I will put this mildly for you dad. Open Theism vs the Closed view can cause a pretty big rip tide between believers. I try as most do to not get highly emotional in debates such as these. But if your going to cry foul and start calling people who have studied sons of Satan, then I suggest you back off the debate. Because if your position is correct, your not doing God any favors. I can say the same for me if I start acting as childish as you on this subject. If you believe your postion to be correct, Proof it. You have offered nothing but crap since this thread started. Now we can all talk about this civilily, but that is up to you.