BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)
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Shadowx
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Z zz.zz
Z zz.zz
How about when God asked man, "What are you doing?", when they do wrong?
Why does he do that?
God judged the murder of kids to a pagan God wrong and would support anyone who also judges this to be the case. He would not support anyone who judges it to be a "good" thing or of Him.
Why, in the Bible, does he divorce himself from our wickedness?
How can God say, I didn't do this..?
Danny
Z zz.zz
Z Man said:
How about when God asked man, "What are you doing?", when they do wrong?
Why does he do that?
God judged the murder of kids to a pagan God wrong and would support anyone who also judges this to be the case. He would not support anyone who judges it to be a "good" thing or of Him.
Why, in the Bible, does he divorce himself from our wickedness?
How can God say, I didn't do this..?
Danny
Shadowx
New member
"Exactly what I would say! If there is one thing that my children will learn from me, it will be that God isn't out to make thier lives any better. They will learn that life has nothing to do with them, and EVERYTHING to do with God."
"Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
Life has nothing to do with us, Jesus didn't die for mankind..He never wept over Israel...God was never emotional about desiring what is in our best interests...He was never frustrated ..He never regretted over us..
"You were raped because God is not out to improve your life"
"He doesn't want you to have better then that!"
"He wanted you to be raped and infected with aids, praise God!"
Wow man, with a God like this, who needs satan..
I wouldn't let you near me or my family..and anyone in their right mind would have the same attitude.
Danny
"Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
Life has nothing to do with us, Jesus didn't die for mankind..He never wept over Israel...God was never emotional about desiring what is in our best interests...He was never frustrated ..He never regretted over us..
"You were raped because God is not out to improve your life"
"He doesn't want you to have better then that!"
"He wanted you to be raped and infected with aids, praise God!"
Wow man, with a God like this, who needs satan..
I wouldn't let you near me or my family..and anyone in their right mind would have the same attitude.
Danny
theo_victis
New member
I am going to pick on your CV pressuposition, and the issue of punishment for sins.
1. Lets say God "foreknows" the future and things are eternally set in stone according to his knowledge.
2. Person "X" is a sinner.
3. Person "X" becomes a Christian and is forgiven of his sins.
4. According to scripture (Romans 3:23) the wages of sin is death, so therefore this person deserves (eternal) death as justice and retributive punishment for the sins committed, however, since being forgiven this no longer applies.
5. According to God's foreknowledge, Person "X", eternally speaking was always and is always forgiven.
6. Thus Person "X" could never have recieved the due punishment since Person "X" was always forgiven.
7. Therefore Person "X" never deserved the due punishment since before the foundations of time he was forgiven (since it does not matter with foreknowledge what the "current" status of the person is but the end result and since God is eternal and his "foreknowledge" is Person "X" would be eternally free of sin).
Pending that my arguments were logical, does that sound scriptural to you? Because of God's foreknowledge you werent ever a "sinner" because you were always forgiven. That isnt scriptural at all. Its because of God's grace you are no longer a sinner. Its because God changed his mind about our deserved punishment and showed us mercy we may have eternal life. Once again if my reasoning is flawed, dont harp on me too much i am just messing around here with some arguments against CV.
Also here is another argument i thought of against CV (Btw, i am still on the fence about this whole issue).
1. Suppose that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all things
2. Person "X" was preconcieved by God, and created by God. Person "X" is a human being according to typical definitions of that which is human..
3. God would have known Person "X" before Person "X" were born.
4. God would have always known Person "X" since God is eternal.
5. Person "X" would be an eternal being then since God would have known Person "X" as the preconcieved Person "X", the present living animate Person "X", and the eternal Person "X" (via heaven or hell).
6. There would be no timeline to place Person "X" on since the preconcieved Person "X", the present living animate Person "X", and the future eternal Person "X" would be as old as God.
7. Person "X" would exist simultaneously in the past, present and future to God and therefore Person "X" is either in heaven now or burning in hell right this moment.
If all these points are axioms and therefore true, then why doesnt God address us as the future us? And even if God would, he would have already done so since the future is closed. But can the future be closed for God if he is eternal? For eternal would imply that the future of God was "never ending" in a manner that supplies the notion of "yet to be complete". If the future was never ending or yet to be complete how would God know it since it hasnt existed yet for God? Does God know all of infinity or is he infinte?
ok thats my main problems with foreknowledge of God. How do you CV deal with it? And if i am illogical in my arguments please point it out for my own better understanding.
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theo_victis
New member
Shadowx said:
Maybe he meant that God's first priority isnt to make us have the best possible life under what we deem best to be but rather having life revolve around us it revolves around God?
I am not sure if he meant that, but i sure hope he did.
Otherwise, this would make him and God look like a monster like you demonstrated.
:up:
Z Man said:
Someone needs to reread the stories. God told Moses to strike a rock or people to carry the ark. He did not punish them for obeying, but for how they disobeyed His exact commands (strike x times vs y times, etc.).
God did not ordain that Peter deny Jesus. He predicted it. I thought you insisted that predicting does not mean causing (can be foreknown and free).
God did not predestine Hitler's evil. This would make God, not Hitler responsible Hitler is in hell for his actions. If Hitler would have grown up to be a pastor (possible, though not actual in retrospect), then Hitler would not be in hell. He was born innocent with a blank slate. His madness developed as he made wrong choices, not as God coerced a blueprint, ordained plan on him.
Predestination/responsibility apply to God's perfect actions.
The issues you tried to bring into this are also not about individual salvation. A census, ordained or not, is not a salvific issue. God is not arbitrary in individual salvation. His provision is efficacious for whomsoever comes to the cross.
Z Man said:
I trust that His provision is efficacious for all who believe. It misrepresents Him to say that He saves me, but damns my children to hell, even before they were born. God is the perfect parent, yet Israel went astray. He did not ordain this. It broke His heart and He won them back. God does not ordain that babies get sodomized and murdered.
The Gospels portray Jesus, God with a face, opposing evil, not affirming it as God's will. The warfare model (light vs darkness) is evident, whereas Calvinism's blueprint model is problematic to free will and holiness. Sovereignty cannot by hyper-sovereignty without negating biblical revelation on love, holiness, and freedom. Providential vs meticulous control is the biblical model and resolves the false conclusions Zman is arriving at (God is responsible for moral evil...this is his cue to bring out his proof texts from KJV that talk about evil/natural disasters sent in righteous judgment).
Shadowx
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Zzzzz
Zzzzz
I think even kids would deem being raped as less then a good thing/ life that revolved around God..
In other words, I don't think telling your child who was raped, "Hey, life doesn't revolve around what you "think" God's perfect will for you is, this rape was part of it!!" would cause them to want more of God's will in their lives...
One rape would probably be enough of God's perfect will, I doubt they would want any more...of it..
It's sick..I don't believe he would ever say this to his kids.."It was God's perfect will for you to be raped, he planned it all out from the beginning, it's his way of blessing you!!"
"Jesus was treated much worse, who do you think you are!"
That's ...utterly filthy....kind of makes you sick just thinking someone would say this to their kids..Anyways, he can answer for himself If I have erred..
Thanks for feedback though.
Danny
Zzzzz
theo_victis said:
I think even kids would deem being raped as less then a good thing/ life that revolved around God..
In other words, I don't think telling your child who was raped, "Hey, life doesn't revolve around what you "think" God's perfect will for you is, this rape was part of it!!" would cause them to want more of God's will in their lives...
One rape would probably be enough of God's perfect will, I doubt they would want any more...of it..
It's sick..I don't believe he would ever say this to his kids.."It was God's perfect will for you to be raped, he planned it all out from the beginning, it's his way of blessing you!!"
"Jesus was treated much worse, who do you think you are!"
That's ...utterly filthy....kind of makes you sick just thinking someone would say this to their kids..Anyways, he can answer for himself If I have erred..
Thanks for feedback though.
Danny
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Z Man
New member
The cross makes it plain to everyone that God does not sweep evil under the rug of the universe. He punishes it in Jesus for those who believe.Shadowx said:
But notice that this ultimately loving act has at the center of it the vindication of the righteousness of God. Good-Friday love is God-glorifying love. God exalts God at the cross. If he didn't, he could not be just and rescue us from sin. But it is a mistake to say, "Well, if the aim was to rescue us, then we were the ultimate goal of the cross." No, we were rescued from sin in order that we might see and savor the glory of God. This is the ultimately loving aim of Christ's death. He did not die to make much of us, but to free us to enjoy making much of God forever.
It is profoundly wrong to turn the cross into a warrant for self-esteem as the root of mental health. If I stand before the love of God and do not feel a healthy, satisfying, freeing joy without turning that love into an echo of my self-esteem, then I am like a man who stands before the Grand Canyon and feels no satisfying wonder until he translates the canyon into a case for his own significance. That is not the presence of health, but bondage to self.
- John Piper
I also strongly suggest you read THIS ARTICLE by Piper as well. You're main problem is thinking in secular terms; it's all about me.
You go a little overboard here. You also show your ignorance by not seeing past your finite way of thinking. Gen. 50:20 shows us that Joseph's brothers evil act against him was ordained by God for a better good. Would it be better to allow a plane full of people to crash into a crowded building, or to shoot the plane down? God is all wise and knows who is affected by people's evilness and suffering, and ordains all events for one greater good; that people may come to realize and see the awesome glory of God. For you to say that no one can ever see the glory of God from a sinful act is foolish. For starters, because of the ordained acts of all those who brought Jesus to trial and had Him crucified, we are saved! There are several Jews who came out of the holocaust with a strengthened hope in God, and went on to write several books that have inspired so many people, even unto this day. Some people who have committed murder, and have been brought to justice and sent to prison, are finally brought to light of God's grace when they hear the gospel for the first time from a prison ministry.
Always remember and get it out of your thick skull; IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
Shadowx
New member
1)Zman, since you reaffirmed above God ordains all things, please answer my simple question; does that include Jeremiah 19:4-5?
2) Prove that God, because of how he dealt with Joseph, (where once again, as with Christ, God manipulates the wicked, to bring about a type of salvation, to SAVE much flesh alive..) used Hitler to murder/burn/experiment on 6 million Jews and TAKE much flesh..
3) Prove that Jesus had no choice in the matter of the cross and that he didn't lay down his life of his own accord.
It looks like you don't disagree with my take in the previous post as to how you would address your kids if they were raped..In fact, it looks like you are trying to justify it..
Danny
2) Prove that God, because of how he dealt with Joseph, (where once again, as with Christ, God manipulates the wicked, to bring about a type of salvation, to SAVE much flesh alive..) used Hitler to murder/burn/experiment on 6 million Jews and TAKE much flesh..
3) Prove that Jesus had no choice in the matter of the cross and that he didn't lay down his life of his own accord.
It looks like you don't disagree with my take in the previous post as to how you would address your kids if they were raped..In fact, it looks like you are trying to justify it..
Danny
sentientsynth
New member
Does God know my entire future?
I have no idea.
I guess that makes me an agnostic in this area. Thanks TOL!
SS
I have no idea.
I guess that makes me an agnostic in this area. Thanks TOL!
SS
No no no!Z Man said:
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.
This in no way says that God ordained the evil that they did. God saw thier evil actions and decided that He was going to make these events turn out according to his plan.
genuineoriginal, in the Critique thread, wrote:
Certainly God is able to influence people to carry out his will. (He used some rather persuasive tactics to influence Jonah to go to Nineveh, and to influence to Ninevites to repent.) Even humans can influence and manipulate one another and we don't use "mind control powers" to do so. How much more so is God able to influence and manipulate men?
Concerning your second question, every OVer I have ever known would answer "No!"genuineoriginal said:
Certainly God is able to influence people to carry out his will. (He used some rather persuasive tactics to influence Jonah to go to Nineveh, and to influence to Ninevites to repent.) Even humans can influence and manipulate one another and we don't use "mind control powers" to do so. How much more so is God able to influence and manipulate men?
It would seem that genuineoriginal is the one setting up straw men. Perhaps unintentionally but doing so none the less.
Further, it seems to me that all of these issues have been covered in the debate, all of them! I wonder which debate genuineoriginal is reading?
Resting in Himm,
Clete
Further, it seems to me that all of these issues have been covered in the debate, all of them! I wonder which debate genuineoriginal is reading?
Resting in Himm,
Clete
GuySmiley
Well-known member
God could have predestined the plane to never be flown into the building or get shot down. He could predestin it to just take off and land safely at its destination.Z Man said:
What about the guy they murdered who wasn't saved? You are making God the author of sin so that good could come out of it. Lamerson doesn't even go this far, to his credit.
Is this what you would tell your daughter if she were raped? I imagine you'd rap your knuckles on her head as you said it.
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