BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[Z Man]

The following was posted on the BR X critique thread:ROTFL!!! :rotfl:

If Z Man were a character in the Bible he would be crying to God because He didn't destroy Nineveh.

God didn't destroy Nineveh because they repented. Why? Because God threatened them. His threat against them led to their repentence. Ask yourself Novice, do you think that maybe perhaps God was wise enough to know that? If your kid is acting up, would you threaten to punish them if they did not behave? You would make that threat because you would desire the outcome, which would be good behavior. In the same manner, God threatened Nineveh.

I do not see how the story of Nineveh is such a stumbling block as the Open Theists seem to suggest.

 

[elected4ever]

e4e, this post is uncalled for. If you want to explain why you think Bob is wrong then by all means do so. This is greatly encouraged. But there's no need for you to slam somebody else because they agree with what you don't especially if it's to a point where you think you might end up saying something that will get you banned.

I slammed him because he made no contribution. I don't mine if he agrees with Bob. I agree with Bob on a lot of stuff. The others who were agreeing with Bob made contributions.

Having said that I yield to the higher powderer. I'll try not to do it again. :e4e:

 

[Z Man]

It's great when fools open their mouths. All you have to do is listen to what they say (or type) and there isn't any need to mock them because they mock themselves.

Z Man, next time try to comprehend the post before you make such foolish and false accusations.

Now let's see if you are an honest man or not.

Did Bob state in his round 2 post that his hypothetical regarding Judas is what "should have" happened?

A Yes or No would be great.

My opinion about Bob's post was just that; my opinion. It's obvious that you support Bob Enyart. And so you too are entitled to your opinion. But you do not have to call me a fool just because I disagree with Bob.

Like it or not, Judas DID NOT repent. So Bob's fantasy was pointless. It's an argument that leads to nowhere. If we are to stick to Scripture, we read perfectly clear that Judas did what he did to fulfill Scripture. Bob seems to have a hard time with the truth and fantasizes about what 'could of' happened. His story of Judas's repentence did nothing but make the water murky. He added confusion to the debate that does not need to be there.

I am not going to answer your question Novice, because there is no point to. It would not answer anything that is of value to any sort of meaningful debate. And when I say meaningful, I mean of a debate in which leads to a person becoming a little more wiser in their theology. Answering your question would take us nowhere but down the road to ridicule. No thanks, I'll pass.

 

[elected4ever]

Z Man

I do not see how the story of Nineveh is such a stumbling block as the Open Theists seem to suggest.

Because they have a little bitty God that is easily manipulated to change. That's why. They wont admit it but I think it is true. God couldn't survive without them. All they need to do is act differently and God will change His mind at their behest. Read their post.

 

[novice]

I am not going to answer your question Novice, because there is no point to. It would not answer anything that is of value to any sort of meaningful debate. And when I say meaningful, I mean of a debate in which leads to a person becoming a little more wiser in their theology. Answering your question would take us nowhere but down the road to ridicule. No thanks, I'll pass.

Just as I thought.

 

[drbrumley]

E4E and ZMan,

The Bible doesn’t say anywhere, “God knows the future, or God doesn’t know the future.” But it does make statements which show that almighty God does not know some of the future events of the somewhat free agent, man. God shows that man has free will, because He doesn’t know for sure what man will do in all cases. But I haven’t proved that to you, yet. Gen 22:12-17 shows God doesn’t know the future free actions of man.



Gen 22:12,15-17 And He (God talking) said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 15 Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son; 17 blessing I will bless you,” etc.

Now why would God say, now I know, if He already knew?

 

[novice]

God didn't destroy Nineveh because they repented. Why? Because God threatened them. His threat against them led to their repentence.

Uhhh... think about what you are saying Z Man.

Did Nineveh repent because they were threatened?

Or...

Did Nineveh repent because they were ordained to repent before the foundation of the world?

 

[Livewire]

Bob's last post was a joke! It was a fantasy of his that I personally do not think is befitting for the debate. This isn't "What do you think should've happened Mr. Enyart"? This debate is about whether or not God knows our future or not. The Dr. cut right to the chase from the very get go, staying on topic, by presenting 2 cases from Scripture that seem to indicate yes, God does know our future. And yet, after 2 posts, Enyart has yet to respond to them! Give me a break!

Just so you know you're not alone Dr. Lamerson, this is the same behavior I have come to know from all open-theists that I have debated on this website.

Mr. Enyart, for you to believe that it would have been better for Judas to repent, and God to be delivered to the Gentiles to be crucified another way, is a slap in the face to God's wisdom. You're basically saying you know better than God.

Whether one agrees with Mr. Enyart or not, I think it's obvious that his point wasn't what should have happened as in how God should have carried it out but how the situation with Judas could have happened another way which would have been pleasing to God without it conflicting with scripture or taking away from His glory. I'm surprised that one would twist this as you have. I would think that if you really feel that the Settled view is true and really want people to come to see it as true, the last thing you would want to do is to purposely misconstrue the ideas of the opponent in this battle with whom you disagree.

 

[elected4ever]

E4E and ZMan,

The Bible doesn’t say anywhere, “God knows the future, or God doesn’t know the future.” But it does make statements which show that almighty God does not know some of the future events of the somewhat free agent, man. God shows that man has free will, because He doesn’t know for sure what man will do in all cases. But I haven’t proved that to you, yet. Gen 22:12-17 shows God doesn’t know the future free actions of man.



Gen 22:12,15-17 And He (God talking) said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 15 Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son; 17 blessing I will bless you,” etc.

Now why would God say, now I know, if He already knew?

It was not God talking but an Angel of the Lord. An Angel, a created being that did the will Of God. Of course He didn't know. Get your facts strait.

Genesis 22:11 *¶And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

 

[elected4ever]

Uhhh... think about what you are saying Z Man.

Did Nineveh repent because they were threatened?

Or...

Did Nineveh repent because they were ordained to repent before the foundation of the world?

Did God change as a result?

 

[novice]

Did God change as a result?

Yes.

Don't take my word for it, read God's own words....

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[Z Man]

Yes.

Don't take my word for it, read God's own words....

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

That doesn't mean that God changed. It means He kept His promise. If Nineveh had not repented, God would of destroyed them, like He said. But Nineveh did repent, thus God's threat was no longer valid.

If your kid behaved after you threatened him, would you still punish him? If you didn't, does that mean you have changed as a person?

 

[novice]

That doesn't mean that God changed. It means He kept His promise. If Nineveh had not repented, God would of destroyed them, like He said. But Nineveh did repent, thus God's threat was no longer valid.

If your kid behaved after you threatened him, would you still punish him? If you didn't, does that mean you have changed as a person?

Thanks for making my point so crystal clear, I couldn't have said it better myself!

Now, name me one open theist that claims that when God changes, He changes "as a person"? Or asked another way, have you ever heard an open theist state that God's character changes when He changes His mind?

 

[Z Man]

Whether one agrees with Mr. Enyart or not, I think it's obvious that his point wasn't what should have happened as in how God should have carried it out but how the situation with Judas could have happened another way which would have been pleasing to God without it conflicting with scripture or taking away from His glory. I'm surprised that one would twist this as you have. I would think that if you really feel that the Settled view is true and really want people to come to see it as true, the last thing you would want to do is to purposely misconstrue the ideas of the opponent in this battle with whom you disagree.

Mr. Livewire,

During Bob's 2nd post, he asked Dr. Lamerson this:

"But still I answer, “yes,” Jesus’ prophecy about Judas could have failed. As you will agree Sam, that which glorifies God the most is best, and most true. So what would glorify God more, Judas’ humble repentance, or completing his hard-hearted betrayal?"

In other words, Mr. Livewire, it is obvious here that Mr. Enyart believes that if Judas had repented, it would of glorified God more than what had actually happened. Mr. Enyart believes that Judas should've repented. Judas repenting wasn't an 'alternative' to glorifying God; according to Mr. Enyart, it was the ONLY way to glorify God. It's interesting to note here that Mr. Enyart believes Judas' betrayal did not glorify God, and that Mr. Enyart's fantasy of Judas's repentence would have. He assumes that he knows better than God.

 

[Z Man]

Thanks for making my point so crystal clear, I couldn't have said it better myself!

Now, name me one open theist that claims that when God changes, He changes "as a person"? Or asked another way, have you ever heard an open theist state that God's character changes when He changes His mind?

Novice,

You don't get it. God didn't change His mind about Nineveh. If Nineveh had NOT repented, and then God decided against destroying them, THEN, and only then, can you charge God with changing His mind. But the changing here isn't with God; it was with Nineveh! They changed, thus God's threat was no longer valid.

 

[drbrumley]

It was not God talking but an Angel of the Lord. An Angel, a created being that did the will Of God. Of course He didn't know. Get your facts strait.

Genesis 22:11 *¶And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Sorry, I do have my facts STRAIGHT. I inadvertently omitted God's angel speaking God's personnel message to Abraham. Unless you want me to believe God wanted Abraham to prove something to an angel. Lets look at the whole story shall we?

1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad[a] and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”
6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. 7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.
9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide;as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”
15 Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

So by this story, you want us to believe that God had ordered Abraham to sacrfice his son to AN ANGEL? One would HAVE to come to that conclusion by listening to the angel's words. "“Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Unless God gave the angel the message. Which is the case. You doubt that? Just look at verses 15 thru 18. Same thing is happening, isn't it? An Angel of the LORD is speaking, saying " “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Why is it you like to look at a couple verses and thats it? The whole chapter here destroys your intreptation. All you gotta do is look.

Dave

 

[novice]

Novice,

You don't get it. God didn't change His mind about Nineveh. If Nineveh had NOT repented, and then God decided against destroying them, THEN, and only then, can you charge God with changing His mind. But the changing here isn't with God; it was with Nineveh! They changed, thus God's threat was no longer valid.

Interesting.

Tell me, was Nineveh's repentance ordained by God Himself before the foundation of the world?

 

[novice]

Where is that cricket smilie????

 

[Servo]

Novice,

You don't get it. God didn't change His mind about Nineveh. If Nineveh had NOT repented, and then God decided against destroying them, THEN, and only then, can you charge God with changing His mind. But the changing here isn't with God; it was with Nineveh! They changed, thus God's threat was no longer valid.

But didn't God preordain that Nineveh would repent? So how can you say that Niveveh changed?

Oh, sorry if kind of a repent of Novice's question, didn't read down far enough.

 

[godrulz]

Z Man Because they have a little bitty God that is easily manipulated to change. That's why. They wont admit it but I think it is true. God couldn't survive without them. All they need to do is act differently and God will change His mind at their behest. Read their post.

Straw man caricature. God is not fickle nor easily manipulated to change. No wonder you reject the straw man of your version of open theism. God is omnipotent, sovereign, omniscient, omnipresent, omnicompetent, infinite, etc. He is the ROCK. God existed before creation and does not depend on us for His continued existence.

God does respond to prayer: yes, no, wait. If He promises to withhold judgment IF they repent, then He is true to His Word. If they repent, and He changes His intentions, then this is to His glory as He keep His Word. His changes of mind are consistent with love, truth, and wisdom.