ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!

[gimp]

Clete,

So you really do believe your God is bloodthirsty in execution of punishment. He isn't simply dispensing justice, but he is angry and is going to make someone pay for making him angry.

In response to that I'd like to ask you if you believe in the doctrine called the trinity.

 

[godrulz]

The biblical revelation is that God is triune, a compound vs solitary unity.

Reverence is the primary meaning of 'fear God'. we are to love and stand in awe of Him. His love draws us vs fire insurance from hell. Satan trembles in scaredy-cat fear (James) of God.

Chevy Chase (actor) was asked what he is scared of: "That there is a God and that He is ticked off."

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by gimp

Clete,

So you really do believe your God is bloodthirsty in execution of punishment. He isn't simply dispensing justice, but he is angry and is going to make someone pay for making him angry.

Common now, you've been on a roll here with respect to being intellectually honest. I suggest that we steer clear of mischaracterizations (or recharacterizations) of each other’s beliefs that are only designed to score emotional points.

God dispenses justice (true justice) while at the same time being angry, a feat most human beings are not capable of. And it is not about making people "pay for making him angry", it's about making you pay for the wrongs you have committed and for the damage those wrongs have caused. It is about justice not arbitrary retribution.

In response to that I'd like to ask you if you believe in the doctrine called the trinity.

If you mean the Trinity (capital T) yes I do. There is but one single God who is manifest in three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Indeed, if the Trinity doesn't exist Christianity is logically incoherent and therefore false. If Christianity is false then all of existence itself cannot be made sense of. Therefore the doctrine of the Trinity must be true because of the impossibility of the contrary.

Why do you ask?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Gimp:

The issues surrounding sin, the cross, justice, mercy, holiness, love, etc. are governmental (God is the Moral Governor of the universe). They are not personal, appeasement issues. They relate to public, not retributive justice (there is a difference...theories of the atonement that are retributive are pagan and not worthy of the Holy, loving, living God).

Since you are rejecting a straw-man caricature view of God and His ways (and rightly so...I would reject a false god also), why not come to Him on His terms and discover the abundant and eternal life that is found in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only way to the Father?

The Gospel includes basic truth about God (existence, character), man (image of God; sinner by choice), Christ (Deity/resurrection), repentant faith (cease Selfishness to live for Him), and continuance in the faith (continue to love, trust, and obey God to the end). He is the most beautiful, valuable, being in the universe. He is unselfish to command us to live for Him rather than in defiant rebellion. God wants to kill you. Unless we die to self we will not live for Him. He died for me, I will live for Him.

He is a prayer away. Cease trusting yourself and trust in Jesus alone. He will transform you if you will believe with your whole heart (includes knowledge, mental assent, and trust/love).

Your problem is not primarily intellectual (Christianity will stand as true with any objective, historical inquiry= God exists, Christ died and rose again, etc.). Most people's problem is moral: they do not want to give their lives to their rightful, responsible Creator. They say with Frank Sinatra "I did it my way."

There are two kinds of people:

Those who say: "THY (God's) will be done."

Those to whom God says reluctantly: "OK, thy (your) will be done." (there are tragic consequences for rejecting God's provision of the cure for sin and death).

As you contemplate this, the Spirit of God is gently striving with your will, intellect, and emotions to convict of unbelief and convince of the truth of His reality. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you.

 

[natewood3]

GIT,

Just cause we are able to do it doesn’t mean we don’t need help actually going through with it.

We can do it in and of ourselves, but yet we need help??? I don't get it at all...

I said:

Why would anyone "repent and believe" in Someone who they do not see or understand, Someone who does not look gloriously beautiful and all-satisfying? Why would anyone come to Christ if they do not see Him? Why would anyone believe in Christ if they don't see Him as the all-satisfying Treasure they have been searching for?

You replied:

because we ALL know we have sinned. We ALL know we are guilty before God. We ALL know we cannot save ourselves. THAT is the reason we need Christ and why we should repent. You seem to think that one chooses Christ because they feel the need for him in their life, that he will make their lives better, he will enhance their daily experiences or something along that line. That is so false I don’t know where to begin. The reason one chooses Christ is because he needs salvation and that salvation is found only in Christ..

So you chose Christ because you didn't need Him really?

You need salvation because you are separated from Christ! Salvation puts you in right standing with God and makes peace between you and God, but yet you didn't need Him in your life?

It has NOTHING to do with seeing him as a treasure, seeing him as beautiful, thinking he’s what you need or anything like that. it’s about salvation, plain and simple

Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

What do you make of these parables then?

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Luk 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

What do you make of Jesus' words?

Phi 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phi 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

Paul gave up everything to get forgiveness???

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

What is salvation? What is eternal life about? KNOWING Christ!

2Co 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God commands light to shine (seeing Him is obviously important; Satan is blinding us so we cannot see) in our hearts to give us the knowledge of our sin? No! He gives us a knowledge of the GLORY OF CHRIST!!!

I am going to quote Piper again, because God has showed me that CHRIST is the Gospel:

In other words, it matters what you are hoping for through forgiveness. It matters why you want it. If you want forgiveness only for the sake of savoring the creation, then the Creator is not honored and you are not saved. Forgiveness is precious for one final reason: it enables you to enjoy fellowship with God. If you don’t want forgiveness for that reason, you won’t have it at all. God will not be used as currency for the purchase of idols....

The saving motive for wanting eternal life is given in John 17:3: "This is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." If we do not want eternal life because it means joy in God, then we won’t have eternal life. We simply kid ourselves that we are Christians, if we use the glorious gospel of Christ to get what we love more than Christ. The "good news" will not prove good to any for whom God is not the chief good.

In other words, you seem to say that we should come to Christ for His gifts and not the most valuable thing in the universe, namely, HIMSELF!!!

I said:

The point it this: If God does not open our eyes to see His Word as great and marvellous, we won't desire it, yet we are commanded to do it.[/]

You replied:

We are not commanded to do it. God is simply stating that IF we don’t repent, we will continue as we are and WILL die. We don’t die because we didn’t repent as if not repenting were a sin. Rather, it’s because of the sin that we die and a lack of repentance leaves us in our sins.

We are commanded to desire His Word!

1Pe 2:2 Like newborn infants, learnestly desire for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation--

Everyone is also commanded to repent!

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Once again, unbelievers are UNABLE to submit to God's law...

it is God who sanctifies us through his spirit. By “let go and let God” I mean that we have to surrender our abilities and rely totally on God to purify our hearts and renew us in him to live out our lives for his will. Trying to do it on our own is like spitting in the face of Christ.

I agree with you if that is what you meant. However, since it is God who sanctifies through His Spirit, could we ever become sanctified UNLESS the Spirit does it? In other words, is God's work ultimate while ours is dependent and secondary?

Because it’s COMMON grace, not irresistible grace!

Where are we taught that it is common grace that draws us and calls us? Is there not ANY effectual grace at all? You seem not to think so...

If you can’t genuinely give thanks then you should not pretend to. God is not mocked. Either be thankful, or acknowledge that you aren’t and examine why you are not so as to remedy the situation.

You used the word "can't" in regard to "genuinely." So you agree that there are times when we cannot genuinely give thanks?

I said:

The problem with your example is that your cat cannot swim across because it is PHYSICALLY unable to do it. We cannot come to Christ because we are MORALLY unable to do so. It is not as if God is not allowing some people to come to Him who would have came had they been given the opportunity. No one seeks God. No one understands spiritual things. No one sees the Cross as beautiful. Why? Because they don't WANT to and they are UNABLE to do so because of their sinfulness, corruption, and rebellion. Do not make it as though it is God's fault that we are sinful. As I have always said, we make choices and we choose sin. It is OUR fault we cannot come to Christ. That does NOT in any way lessen weight of the command, "Repent and believe."

You are the one who says we are unable to swim. I say we are able, but usually unwilling.

"Usually"??? Does that mean some are willing to "swim" to God? Some seek after God?

t’s because they CHOOSE not to. Repenting has nothing to do with how we see Christ. It has to do with knowing we are sinners and choosing to no longer live that way and accept Christ as our savior for our sins.

Why repent if you don't desire to know God? What would you gain? You will gain a relationship with Christ, but you say it doesn't matter if you want to know Christ because it is all about forgiveness of sins. If that is the case, why can I not just get my sins forgiven and live however I want to live?

Oh so now you deny exhaustive foreknowledge? In case you forgot, they are mutually exclusive concepts.

:kookoo:

The wages of sin is DEATH. Whatever sin we commit, it’s wages is DEATH. Thus, Jesus can pay for them all in one death.

The wages for what sin GIT? How would Christ pay the nonexistant wages for nonexistant sin?

I said:

Who are "all those given to Him by the Father"?

You replied:

All those who repent and believe.

"Given"...does that not imply a passive voice, meaning the subject is acted upon by someone other than itself? You seem to think we "give" ourselves to Christ, rather than believing the Father gave us to Christ. "All those who repent and believe" are the ones given to Christ, but its the Fatherwho gave us, not we who gave ourselves to Him...

Neither one says God takes away our free will. Remember, we are the ones who repent in the first place. We surrender our wills to God at that point and allow God to work in us.

We make it possible for God to carry out His plans...we are sure special, huh?

I said:

If we produce that which is pleasing in His sight on our own, you know who will get glory and praise? US!!! However, if it is God who gives and produces that which is pleasing in His sight IN us and through us, then GOD gets the glory. The Giver gets the glory.

You replied:

Oooooooo no we don’t. we don’t because it is BOTH God and us who does it. the ONLY way we could claim any glory is if it was ALL us. But since it’s God who works IN us to produce good fruit that we do, we must give him the glory.

You are denying reality GIT. If me and you work on building a house, and I start building the house first. Later, once I have laid just the foundation, you come and help me put up the rest of the house. The upstairs, downstairs, all the rooms, etc. Would you be upset if I went around trying to sell the house and told everyone it was entirely my project? Would you be mad if when people come to look at the house I told them, "Yeah, I built this entire house by myself"?

I agree that it was from eternity past, but in a different sense. God ordained it as the plan of salvation that would be brought to mankind not WHEN they sinned, but IF they sinned. The prophecies ALL came AFTER man sinned, not before. Why would God ordain it before man sinned? Because God plans ahead…

So the Fall wasn't a suprise to God? You make the Cross out to be a possible and not an actual. However, I cannot find one Scripture to support that notion....not one.

Why? Where do evil thoughts come from? Partly the devil, partly temptations, and partly our own desires. Now if God restrains Satan, removes the temptations and has us focus on something good for a while, then he can stop us from having evil thoughts. However, since we have free will I don’t believe he will stop us from having evil thoughts at all.

Suppose an evil thought arises from out own desires and mind. We are sitting not thinking anything evil, then suddenly we lust and sin. Could God have stopped that if He so chose to do so?

I said:

So Pharaoh COULD HAVE repented and changed everything?

You replied:

Sure.

So God's purpose of making His power known would have failed? God said that He raised Pharaoh up to make His power known. He also declared:

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Exo 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,
Exo 10:2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD."

Exo 14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Exo 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

God doing all of this was spoken of throughout Israel's history...it seems God's plan to get glory would have been severly damaged if Pharaoh had done the unexpected.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by natewood3

GIT,
We can do it in and of ourselves, but yet we need help??? I don't get it at all...

You’ve never needed help in going through with something you were capable of doing?

So you chose Christ because you didn't need Him really?

What are you talking about? I chose him because I DID need him! But the primary need wasn’t fellowship, joy or the like. The primary need for Christ is for forgiveness of sins. Did I need him in other ways? Definitely, but they all fell second to needing to be forgiven.

You need salvation because you are separated from Christ! Salvation puts you in right standing with God and makes peace between you and God, but yet you didn't need Him in your life?

Of course I did! But the primary need for salvation is redemption, not fellowship!

Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

What do you make of these parables then?

You find the kingdom of God WHEN you become forgiven, not before.

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Luk 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

What do you make of Jesus' words?

What’s the problem?

Phi 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phi 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

Paul gave up everything to get forgiveness???

Of course not, he was already forgiven. He gave them up BECAUSE he was forgiven. He did all that BECAUSE he had found the kingdom of God. You find the treasure WHEN you are forgiven, not before.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

What is salvation? What is eternal life about? KNOWING Christ!

And how well can one know Christ when sin still is not forgiven? Forgiveness is the first step, after we are justified is when we gain all the benefits of being redeemed, namely eternal life which is knowing Christ Jesus.

2Co 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God commands light to shine (seeing Him is obviously important; Satan is blinding us so we cannot see) in our hearts to give us the knowledge of our sin? No! He gives us a knowledge of the GLORY OF CHRIST!!!

]

Yes, that’s how we see him once we are made right with him and have been forgiven.

I am going to quote Piper again, because God has showed me that CHRIST is the Gospel:

In other words, it matters what you are hoping for through forgiveness. It matters why you want it. If you want forgiveness only for the sake of savoring the creation, then the Creator is not honored and you are not saved. Forgiveness is precious for one final reason: it enables you to enjoy fellowship with God. If you don’t want forgiveness for that reason, you won’t have it at all. God will not be used as currency for the purchase of idols....

The saving motive for wanting eternal life is given in John 17:3: "This is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." If we do not want eternal life because it means joy in God, then we won’t have eternal life. We simply kid ourselves that we are Christians, if we use the glorious gospel of Christ to get what we love more than Christ. The "good news" will not prove good to any for whom God is not the chief good.

Forgiveness is sought to escape the wrath of God which in turn brings you into fellowship, they are one and the same.

In other words, you seem to say that we should come to Christ for His gifts and not the most valuable thing in the universe, namely, HIMSELF!!!

On the contrary, Christ IS the gift.

We are commanded to desire His Word!

1Pe 2:2 Like newborn infants, learnestly desire for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation—

And what Christian wouldn’t?

Everyone is also commanded to repent!

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Acts 17
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Saying that they should is not the same as commanding it. it’s rather a recommendation of what is beneficial to one’s self. The consequence of not repenting is exactly where one already is, death.

Once again, unbelievers are UNABLE to submit to God's law...

Repentance is not part of the law, it’s our admittance that we can’t live up to the standards and a request to God to help us walk in it.

I agree with you if that is what you meant. However, since it is God who sanctifies through His Spirit, could we ever become sanctified UNLESS the Spirit does it? In other words, is God's work ultimate while ours is dependent and secondary?

I don’t understand what you are saying. I don’t hold that we can sanctify ourselves if that’s what you mean.

Where are we taught that it is common grace that draws us and calls us? Is there not ANY effectual grace at all? You seem not to think so...

Where are we taught that it’s irresistible?

You used the word "can't" in regard to "genuinely." So you agree that there are times when we cannot genuinely give thanks?

Have you always been 100% genuinely thankful every time you said thanks?

"Usually"??? Does that mean some are willing to "swim" to God? Some seek after God?

Some respond to God’s call, yes.

Why repent if you don't desire to know God? What would you gain? You will gain a relationship with Christ, but you say it doesn't matter if you want to know Christ because it is all about forgiveness of sins. If that is the case, why can I not just get my sins forgiven and live however I want to live?

Why do people plead for mercy on the court? Cause they know they are guilty!

:kookoo:

it’s logically based, are you now denying logic too? :chuckle:

The wages for what sin GIT? How would Christ pay the nonexistant wages for nonexistant sin?

For ALL sin. ALL sin pays the same price, death. Thus, through the one death of Christ he is able to save us all.

"Given"...does that not imply a passive voice, meaning the subject is acted upon by someone other than itself? You seem to think we "give" ourselves to Christ, rather than believing the Father gave us to Christ. "All those who repent and believe" are the ones given to Christ, but its the Fatherwho gave us, not we who gave ourselves to Him...

The father draws us to Christ. Thus, he gives us to him.

We make it possible for God to carry out His plans...we are sure special, huh?

It’s not that God couldn’t do his plans another way, it’s just that it’s the way he’s chosen to do it.

You are denying reality GIT. If me and you work on building a house, and I start building the house first. Later, once I have laid just the foundation, you come and help me put up the rest of the house. The upstairs, downstairs, all the rooms, etc. Would you be upset if I went around trying to sell the house and told everyone it was entirely my project? Would you be mad if when people come to look at the house I told them, "Yeah, I built this entire house by myself"?

Who said I build any of the house?

So the Fall wasn't a suprise to God? You make the Cross out to be a possible and not an actual. However, I cannot find one Scripture to support that notion....not one.

It wasn’t a surprise in that God didn’t think it couldn’t happen. The only way to say that the cross wasn’t just possible until the fall is to say that God ordained the fall in which case God ordained sin and I know that’s not a position you want to hold…..

Suppose an evil thought arises from out own desires and mind. We are sitting not thinking anything evil, then suddenly we lust and sin. Could God have stopped that if He so chose to do so?

By taking away our free will yes.

So God's purpose of making His power known would have failed? God said that He raised Pharaoh up to make His power known. He also declared:

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Exo 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,
Exo 10:2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD."

Exo 14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Exo 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

God doing all of this was spoken of throughout Israel's history...it seems God's plan to get glory would have been severly damaged if Pharaoh had done the unexpected.

I am not the only one who holds that pharaoh could’ve repented. See here for another explanation:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html

blessings,

GIT

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I haven't been following this conversation as closely as I should so I hope that I'm not too far off the topic at hand, but I found this comment of yours interesting and felt that I should respond.

The only reason we have free-will is because God has sovereignly decided to grant us the ability to choose on our own whom we will serve. God could snuff out our existence in a blink of an eye if He wished, so there is simply no way to suggest that our ability to freely choose what we do and believe in anyway impinges upon God's sovereignty.
While the theological meaning of the term sovereign has come to mean the meticulous control of every detail of every event that has or will ever occur, that is not the normal meaning of the word. A human king does not have to control or even be aware of every event that occurs in his country to be that countries sovereign ruler. The term sovereign simply indicates authority, God is the highest authority that exists, all authority of any sort comes from and can be recalled at any time by God, He is therefore sovereign, period.

And one last point concerning "the Potter's hands". The Potter and the clay analogy refers to God (the Potter) and the nation of Israel (the clay), it is not talking about individuals at all. This story does not speak to the issue of free-will but rather to God choosing and using a nation as a whole to accomplish some particular purpose.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I don't mean to suggest that you disagree with any of this. I'm just throwing in my two cents.

Clete,
Agreed regarding sovereignty, though to add to it God's soveriegnty extends also over our "free will" to the degree that he influences man, extends all grace, leads us into truth. He is the source of all which is good.

We should also extend the potter reference beyond the "nation of Israel". God has formed and forms us all.

Peace,
STONE

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

Clete,
Agreed regarding sovereignty, though to add to it God's sovereignty extends also over our "free will" to the degree that he influences man, extends all grace, leads us into truth. He is the source of all which is good.

We should also extend the potter reference beyond the "nation of Israel". God has formed and forms us all.

Peace,
STONE

Our free will amounts to delegated authority and so yes His sovereignty does extend to it in that He has the ability and the absolute right to recall that delegated authority from us at anytime (via death, or by whatever means). However, HE DOES NOT DO THAT! He can and does manipulated His enemies and cooperates with His friends (forming the clay if you will) but nowhere in Scripture do we read about God removing anyone's free will from them and forcing them to do anything. Even Jonah could have rebelled again once he found himself out of the fishes belly and on the beach. God might have killed him for having done so, but he could have done it none the less. There's simply not a single episode in the Bible which requires the belief that God removes one's freewill, it just isn't in there.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Our free will amounts to delegated authority and so yes His sovereignty does extend to it in that He has the ability and the absolute right to recall that delegated authority from us at anytime (via death, or by whatever means). However, HE DOES NOT DO THAT! He can and does manipulated His enemies and cooperates with His friends (forming the clay if you will) but nowhere in Scripture do we read about God removing anyone's free will from them and forcing them to do anything. Even Jonah could have rebelled again once he found himself out of the fishes belly and on the beach. God might have killed him for having done so, but he could have done it none the less. There's simply not a single episode in the Bible which requires the belief that God removes one's freewill, it just isn't in there.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Exactly.

 

[godrulz]

Free will is self-evident. There is no need for God to micromanage and control when I brush my teeth, eat, which way I drive to work, when I go to the bathroom, if I give to charity, if I share my faith, if I yell at my kids, if I pray at 10:00 or 10:04, etc.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

Free will is self-evident. There is no need for God to micromanage and control when I brush my teeth, eat, which way I drive to work, when I go to the bathroom, if I give to charity, if I share my faith, if I yell at my kids, if I pray at 10:00 or 10:04, etc.

Yes! And what sort of relationship would you have with God if He did micromanage every detail of your life? I don't think you could really call it a relationship at all. :down:

 

[STONE]

Don't forget clete, every breath you breathe is formed by the Him, along with the lungs that breathe it. Also "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered"
and your very existence He holds in the palm of His hand.

 

[godrulz]

Knowing my thoughts, actions, motives, and the number of hairs on my head does not mean he dictates which shampoo I use or when I brush, cut, or wash my hair. He guides providentially, not as a causative force back of my self-determining will.

 

[STONE]

Who or what in your life has influenced your thoughts, motives, ideas, and beliefs most?
Could anyone be seen as causative in your motivations?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by STONE

Who or what in your life has influenced your thoughts, motives, ideas, and beliefs most?
Could anyone be seen as causative in your motivations?

Influence and persuasion are lesser levels of control than coercion or causative forces.

What ever influences I have had, it was still my will and intellect that originated my motives, thoughts, and actions.

What exactly is so bad about having genuine freedom? It is a gift from God and less problematic than a deterministic universe.

God's sovereignty does not have to be meticulous control of every mundane and moral detail in the universe. The biblical revelation is that there is a warfare, not a blueprint. God is omnicompetent, responsive, creative, and providential; He is not a fatalistic control freak. We are in the image of God (personal, moral, spiritual); we are not a product of Microsoft (data in, data out).

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

Don't forget Clete, every breath you breathe is formed by the Him, along with the lungs that breathe it. Also "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered"
and your very existence He holds in the palm of His hand.

Does the mechanic cause the pistons in a engine to perform their work?
From a certain perspective the answer could be yes in that it is the design and the proper maintenance of that engine that allows it to perform in the first place, not to mention someone must turn the starter. But suggesting that the mechanic (or engineer) actually physically pushes the pistons down 1300 times a minute is silly, and if it were so would indicate a horribly designed motor.
This analogy isn't perfect but I think it nicely communicates the sort of "control" which God maintains over his creation. His creation works the way it does because He designed it to work that way and because He maintains it to whatever degree is needed for it to consist.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

God governs inanimate creation by the law of cause and effect. The wind blows and the leaves move. He does not actively move each leaf.

Animate creation is governed by the law of instinct. Birds migrate as a built in feature of their complex creation. They flap their own wings. God does not have to control the animal kingdom directly (though he can at times...talk thru donkey= exception).

God governs His moral creation through free will. We have free moral agency and self-determination. We can worship God or we can live for Self. We can preach the Gospel or we can get caught up in the cares of this life.

God does strive with us and work with us, but He does not normatively control us. This would not be for a higher glory or good. He is so sovereign that He does not have to control everything.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by godrulz

Influence and persuasion are lesser levels of control than coercion or causative forces.

What ever influences I have had, it was still my will and intellect that originated my motives, thoughts, and actions.

What exactly is so bad about having genuine freedom? It is a gift from God and less problematic than a deterministic universe.

God's sovereignty does not have to be meticulous control of every mundane and moral detail in the universe. The biblical revelation is that there is a warfare, not a blueprint. God is omnicompetent, responsive, creative, and providential; He is not a fatalistic control freak. We are in the image of God (personal, moral, spiritual); we are not a product of Microsoft (data in, data out).

We have genuine freedom. We also have a perfect Father who knows how to guide man into all truth. Freedom is a necessary part of coming to that truth.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Does the mechanic cause the pistons in a engine to perform their work? From a certain perspective the answer could be yes in that it is the design and the proper maintenance of that engine that allows it to perform in the first place, not to mention someone must turn the starter. But suggesting that the mechanic (or engineer) actually physically pushes the pistons down 1300 times a minute is silly, and if it were so would indicate a horribly designed motor.
This analogy isn't perfect but I think it nicely communicates the sort of "control" which God maintains over his creation. His creation works the way it does because He designed it to work that way and because He maintains it to whatever degree is needed for it to consist.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Right.

 

[STONE]

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD."

"A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. "

"The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."

"The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. "

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

"I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

"Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."