ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

Do not forget that the Lord teaches we should recompense no man evil for evil.

But the LORD says "vengeance is mine I will repay, saith the LORD".

The ways and righteousness of the LORD can often seem mysterious and unsearchable to man.
This is also likely the gist of what e4e was saying.

If I understand your point, I would definitely wish that were the case but I don't think it is. e4e can correct me if I'm wrong but I understand him to be saying that God could literally do anything at all and that the action, whether it is currently considered righteous or not, would become righteous by virtue of the fact that it was God who performed it. If this is, in fact, what he is saying he simply couldn't be further from the truth.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with the "vengeance is mine" comment. I think what you are saying is that there are some things which are right for God to do and not for us. If so, then of course, I agree. Another terrific example is the forgiveness of sins. We do not have the authority to forgive crimes, for example. We can, of course, forgive those who sin against us if and only if they repent but criminals are to be punished by the government for their crimes, period, even if the offended party forgives them. For the government not to punish the crime and to forgive the offender would be robbing authority from God. So there are lots of things we have not been given the authority to do that God does have the authority to do and to do justly. I think though, that e4e is suggesting that God can be completely arbitrary and remain righteous. If that is so, 'justice' is a meaningless word and so is 'righteousness'. God would be neither just nor righteous if His law was given capriciously or arbitrarily.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Can we agree that God's righteousness is absolute?

Yes!

Sense God's law is an exact verbalization of the righteousness of God then God's law is also absolute.

I'm with you so far, at least in principle. God's law changes from time to time (i.e. we no longer sacrifice bulls etc.) but God's righteousness is a rock that cannot be moved and His law in whatever form it comes to us, must be obeyed, period.

If one wants to call the acts of God in this world morals then those acts or morals if you prefer are absolutely righteous.

I think you lost me on this one. I understand morality to simply be right and wrong. If a thought or deed is right then it is moral if it is wrong then it is immoral. The current description of God character is the standard, which determines whether something is right or wrong, moral or immoral.

It is God's righteousness that never changes...

The fact that God never changes is a primary indicator that God is in fact good. If He were inconsistent, He could not be good.

...and God acts according to His righteousness regardless of our opinion of the effect of those actions or morals.

If you mean that God is not accountable to us, you are correct, of course.

Human beings cannot stand in judgment of Gods acts or give God instruction on how something should be done. God always follows His own council. :think:

We cannot stand in binding judgment of Him no. But does God not tell us to test Him and see if He won't do as He has promised?Didn't Moses plead with God and convince Him not to destroy His people Israel? Didn't Lot negotiate for the fate of Sodom? Do you not pray for the salvation of your friends and family? You, I think, have definitely overstated things with this last comment. While it is obviously true that we do not have any authority over God at all, it is true that God chooses to have a relationship with us and that He loves us and that we can therefore has a real impact on what God does or does not do. Given what we see clearly depicted in Scripture, I don't see how this can be denied.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

Clete Pfeiffer

I'm with you so far, at least in principle. God's law changes from time to time (i.e. we no longer sacrifice bulls etc.) but God's righteousness is a rock that cannot be moved and His law in whatever form it comes to us, must be obeyed, period.

The law has been and will always require blood as payment for sin debt. Blood was required before Israel and it is required after Israel. The effect of the animal sacrifices was temporary but the blood of Christ is permanent. The law was fulfilled in Christ and is no longer applicable sense Christ's blood is the only blood acceptable to God for sin but blood is still the requirement to fulfill the demands of the law of God on mankind. Without Christ blood there is no remission for man's sin.

The fact that God never changes is a primary indicator that God is in fact good. If He were inconsistent, He could not be good.

God's consistency or like thereof has nothing to do with nothing sense it requires man's judgment. Man is incapable of making such judgments.

We cannot stand in binding judgment of Him no. But does God not tell us to test Him and see if He won't do as He has promised?Didn't Moses plead with God and convince Him not to destroy His people Israel? Didn't Lot negotiate for the fate of Sodom? Do you not pray for the salvation of your friends and family? You, I think, have definitely overstated things with this last comment. While it is obviously true that we do not have any authority over God at all, it is true that God chooses to have a relationship with us and that He loves us and that we can therefore has a real impact on what God does or does not do. Given what we see clearly depicted in Scripture, I don't see how this can be denied.

I not pray for someone to be saved per say but I do make intercessory prayer.The only way a person can be saved is in response to the Holy Spirits testimony in a person's heart. The salvation response is an individual matter of choice but opportunity for choice is given in response to intercessory prayer.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by elected4ever
The law has been and will always require blood as payment for sin debt. Blood was required before Israel and it is required after Israel. The effect of the animal sacrifices was temporary but the blood of Christ is permanent. The law was fulfilled in Christ and is no longer applicable sense Christ's blood is the only blood acceptable to God for sin but blood is still the requirement to fulfill the demands of the law of God on mankind. Without Christ blood there is no remission for man's sin.

Right! That's what I said. The law (or its particulars) change but that which is righteous does not. There is no disagreement between us on this point.

God's consistency or like thereof has nothing to do with nothing sense it requires man's judgment. Man is incapable of making such judgments.

Bob Enyart argued this point in Battle Royale VII. His argument is mine on this issue...

Originally posted by Bob Enyart

God’s nature is not sufficiently pliable that it could embrace truth and perjury, private property and theft, loyalty and disloyalty, and punishing and rewarding of the same behavior. Thus, God could conceivably violate His own nature, because once His nature is described (in what becomes a definition of righteousness), then anything God does contrary to that description would correctly be deemed as unrighteous. For example, using the biblical paradigm, if Jesus Christ gave into temptation by submitting to evil and worshipping Satan, then He would not have remained righteous.

It is not that anything God conceivably could do would therefore be moral, just because He did it. It is that we expect God to remain steadfastly good, consistent with the existing description of His nature. God does not save those who trust Him because He has no choice, but because He wills to, but if He willed to embrace evil (as described currently by His nature) then He would no longer be the righteous God. Quoting the overlooked sentence again:

“God could not do evil (anything against the present description of His nature), and remain holy.” Thus, moral inconsistency is an absolute determinant for wrong. Plato and Socrates missed this important test partly because their dialogue was replete with mentions of Greek gods who, as Socrates noted, contradicted one another as to goodness. Thus the contradictions within the mythical pantheon of Greece falsified any claim of absolute morality made by Euthyphro on behalf of his gods and goddesses. But Plato recorded this dialogue without the knowledge that you possess Zakath, that of the claim of a Christian God who has no such internal inconsistency. God does not fight within Himself about what is right and wrong; but if He ever did, then He would no longer remain the holy God. And there is nothing remotely circular about this. We look for inconsistencies in courtroom testimony because inconsistencies reveal lies and deceptions. Thus consistency is a necessary property of righteousness (and thus of being right). “A faithful witness does not lie, but a false witness will utter lies [and inconsistencies]” (Proverbs 14:5). Again, moral inconsistency is a litmus test for evil. Thus a religious book like the Bible generally claims in forty passages that the steadfast love of the Lord never changes in that He is faithful, that is, He is consistent.

I not pray for someone to be saved per say but I do make intercessory prayer.The only way a person can be saved is in response to the Holy Spirits testimony in a person's heart. The salvation response is an individual matter of choice but opportunity for choice is given in response to intercessory prayer.

So your prayer had an effect on God, right? Of course it did, or else there would have been no reason to pray in the first place.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

Sometimes we need to watch how we express ourselves. We know that God will not save someone simply because I ask Him too. He will give witness by the Holy Spirit unto salvation. He continues to give opportunity because I keep interceding but salvation only comes in response to the witness of the Ho;y Spirit. Yes our prayers do matter.

 

[Just Tom]

Funny some can't remember choosing God.

I can remember to this day standing in the kitchen when the truth of my situation hit me. I had a choice to make and I choose God.

I then became more and more convicted of my sin until I finally confessed them all......

I repented.

God made the way for me but I had to walk down it.

Calvinism is to fleshy for me. They like to talk about total depravity oh how terrible they were and such. It is all a show for the flesh. It makes them feel more special than others since they are God's chosen and everyone else is somehow diminishing God by noting that they made a conscience decision when the holy spirit convicted them of their sin.

They are more holy than you didn't you know that..

 

[godrulz]

Total depravity does not mean total inability. God commands men everywhere to repent at the preaching of the Gospel (Acts) precisely because it is possible to respond to or reject truth and conviction pressed onto our minds by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God. It is contrary to God's revealed character to save some and damn others that He could save if He wanted to ('unconditional election' vs individual responsibility).

 

[docrob57]

Funny some can't remember choosing God.

I can remember to this day standing in the kitchen when the truth of my situation hit me. I had a choice to make and I choose God.

I then became more and more convicted of my sin until I finally confessed them all......

I repented.

God made the way for me but I had to walk down it.

Calvinism is to fleshy for me. They like to talk about total depravity oh how terrible they were and such. It is all a show for the flesh. It makes them feel more special than others since they are God's chosen and everyone else is somehow diminishing God by noting that they made a conscience decision when the holy spirit convicted them of their sin.

They are more holy than you didn't you know that..

This sounds sort of like total depravity doesn't it?

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." F9 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; F10 "The poison of asps is under their lips"; F11 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." F12 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." F13 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." F14

And you are saying that it is more prideful to say you had nothing to do with your salvation than it is to say you freely chose it? I don't know about that one.

 

[Just Tom]

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Was he sinless ? No

But total depravity is an enigma I don't find in the bible.

And you are saying that it is more prideful to say you had nothing to do with your salvation than it is to say you freely chose it? I don't know about that one.

Surely, It is similar to the feeling you get because you were chosen out of all players for the kick ball game. You had nothing to do with it someone else choose you and not the others. So you are special oh so special!!! :devil:

So if I say that I have total depravity and yet have been chosen, I can brag in my depravity.

 

[docrob57]

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Was he sinless ? No

But total depravity is an enigma I don't find in the bible.

What about in the quote I cited?

Surely, It is similar to the feeling you get because you were chosen out of all players for the kick ball game. You had nothing to do with it someone else choose you and not the others. So you are special oh so special!!! :devil:

So if I say that I have total depravity and yet have been chosen, I can brag in my depravity.

I have to be honest, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

[Just Tom]

What about in the quote I cited?

What about it? I showed you that one man PLEASED GOD, so that quote isn't as all encompassing as you would like to think it is.

I have to be honest, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

It is simple to me. If I had no part to play in accepting God's free gift of salvation then I am special. God choose me! My pride tells me this. It is false humility. Like "if I offended anyone I apologize" You don't apologize because you offended someone, you apologize because you were wrong. Get it!!

Wrap your mind around this one!

There once was a wealthy man who had 3 sons, he believed that they were all equally intelligent but he wanted to leave his fortune to the most intelligent one, so he devised a test.

He took all three sons and placed them in a room and blindfolded them. Then he told them that I am going to place either a red dot or a black dot on your forehead. He then went around and placed red dots on everyones forehead. Then he removed the blindfolds and said "If you see a red dot raise your hand"
All three sons rose their hands. Then the father said "Whoever can tell me the color of the dot on their forehead and prove it will get the fortune."

He then walk out of the room

10 min later the third son walked out of the room and said 'Father I have a read dot on my forehead and claimed the fortune"

How did he prove it!

 

[elected4ever]

I have to be honest, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.[/QUOTE]Depravity is not the word one should use.. Man is the enemy of God. That doesn't make him depraved opposing God. In all the references as to what sin is the one thing in common is that sin of any description is the opposition to God. A man can be moral and oppose God because he is the enemy of God.

 

[Clete]

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Was he sinless ? No

But total depravity is an enigma I don't find in the bible.



Surely, It is similar to the feeling you get because you were chosen out of all players for the kick ball game. You had nothing to do with it someone else choose you and not the others. So you are special oh so special!!! :devil:

So if I say that I have total depravity and yet have been chosen, I can brag in my depravity.

POTD! :first:

 

[docrob57]

POTD! :first:

Further evidence that Clete and I are from different planets . . . to me, this was a nonsensical post.

But your okay with me nonetheless Clete.

 

[Just Tom]

Let me see if I can clarify for you..

I believe that the 'total depravity" doctrine is confusing the "all have sinned" fact with "you can't earn your salvation." Thus they come up with 'total depravity'.

So if I believe that I am whole incapable of choosing God and his righteousness, which was written on my heart. Then I can brag that I have been saved. Since God chose me and I had nothing to do with it. I brag that I am saved and had nothing to do with it. Is it the spirit that brags, no it is the flesh. At the same time they are looking down at all of those who are still stuck in there sin. Telling them that you can't choose God he must choose you. Thus the total depravity concept is fleshy. If we can not make a decision for Christ then why preach. Not very relational to me.

The holy spirit convicts and we either harden our hearts or we repent.

 

[docrob57]

Let me see if I can clarify for you..

I believe that the 'total depravity" doctrine is confusing the "all have sinned" fact with "you can't earn your salvation." Thus they come up with 'total depravity'.

So if I believe that I am whole incapable of choosing God and his righteousness, which was written on my heart. Then I can brag that I have been saved. Since God chose me and I had nothing to do with it. I brag that I am saved and had nothing to do with it. Is it the spirit that brags, no it is the flesh. At the same time they are looking down at all of those who are still stuck in there sin. Telling them that you can't choose God he must choose you. Thus the total depravity concept is fleshy. If we can not make a decision for Christ then why preach. Not very relational to me.

The holy spirit convicts and we either harden our hearts or we repent.

Well maybe, I'll have to think on that a bit more.

 

[elected4ever]

Let me see if I can clarify for you..

I believe that the 'total depravity" doctrine is confusing the "all have sinned" fact with "you can't earn your salvation." Thus they come up with 'total depravity'.

So if I believe that I am whole incapable of choosing God and his righteousness, which was written on my heart. Then I can brag that I have been saved. Since God chose me and I had nothing to do with it. I brag that I am saved and had nothing to do with it. Is it the spirit that brags, no it is the flesh. At the same time they are looking down at all of those who are still stuck in there sin. Telling them that you can't choose God he must choose you. Thus the total depravity concept is fleshy. If we can not make a decision for Christ then why preach. Not very relational to me.

The holy spirit convicts and we either harden our hearts or we repent.

That is another one of those slanderous remarks commonly believed. God has called all to repentance but not all will come. Those who come God chooses. How can i brag if it is not my righteousness that saved me. I was not saved by works but by the will of God as every child of God is. So where is my boasting but in the sure mercies and grace of my God who loved me You say by works and then you say Look what i have done to deserve God's good favor. I say Have mercy on me Lord and my lord did and i now love Him because he first loved me. Then I say look at my God, He loves you too. Repent and believe upon Him because if you come to Him He will answer you. All who call upon Him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Just Tom]

That is another one of those slanderous remarks commonly believed. God has called all to repentance but not all will come. Those who come God chooses. How can i brag if it is not my righteousness that saved me. I was not saved by works but by the will of God as every child of God is. So where is my boasting but in the sure mercies and grace of my God who loved me You say by works and then you say Look what i have done to deserve God's good favor. I say Have mercy on me Lord and my lord did and i now love Him because he first loved me. Then I say look at my God, He loves you too. Repent and believe upon Him because if you come to Him He will answer you. All who call upon Him shall not be ashamed.

Repent and believe upon Him because if you come to Him He will answer you.

You can't come to him you are totally depraved he has to come to you. Isn't that your argument in a nutshell..

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You can't come to him you are totally depraved he has to come to you. Isn't that your argument in a nutshell..

:chuckle:

 

[Just Tom]

That is another one of those slanderous remarks commonly believed. God has called all to repentance but not all will come. Those who come God chooses. How can i brag if it is not my righteousness that saved me. I was not saved by works but by the will of God as every child of God is. So where is my boasting but in the sure mercies and grace of my God who loved me You say by works and then you say Look what i have done to deserve God's good favor. I say Have mercy on me Lord and my lord did and i now love Him because he first loved me. Then I say look at my God, He loves you too. Repent and believe upon Him because if you come to Him He will answer you. All who call upon Him shall not be ashamed.

Those who come God chooses

Shouldn't this say "God chooses those who come"

Which way is it.....?

I was not saved by works but by the will of God as every child of God is

You were saved because God made a way with Jesus Christ (but by the will of God). It was God's will to send his Son to save all those who WILL believe..(but by the will of God) You have to believe and chose to be saved. FREE WILL....