ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!

[Bob Hill]

There is much scripture on the security of the believer in this Dispensation of Grace.

1 Thes 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thes 5:1-4 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. Why? Because in the Dispensation of Grace, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot lose our salvation. Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

When is the day of redemption? It is when we are caught up to be with God forever.

We can grieve the Holy Spirit who is in us every time we are selfish or do not do what He wants.
Rom 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Because we are saved by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, we in the Dispensation of Grace are also sealed by the Holy Spirit so we cannot lose our salvation. He is our guarantee.
2 Cor 1:21,22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. We are guaranteed. That means we can’t lose it.

We in the Dispensation of Grace have an absolute assurance of our salvation.
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

OK, maybe I took it the wrong way. That is always a problem in trying to communicate. The way i look at things is that what God knew in the beginning did not actually occur until it occurred. Maybe you guys express that in the terms possible verses actual. God calls that which is not as though it were. So to me what has not happened is as though it is in the mind of God.

Is my salvation complete to the degree to which God describes it. I think not because Christ has not returned as yet. Though it has not occurred in real time is has already happened and is as though it has been completed. It is not just a probability that Christ will return it is an absolute certainty. It is my hope that I have not yet possessed but is more real than the ground we walk on. So we walk by faith and not by sight. I see a lot of "sight" theology but not a lot of faith theology.

 

[godrulz]

God calls that which is not as it were in specific things that He purposes to bring to pass. This cannot be extrapolated to mean that He micromanages everything and determines lottery outcomes, scores for sports events, what every person will eat or wear, when they will have bowel movements, etc. from eternity past. Your possible vs actual observation is closer to the truth. He correctly knows reality as it is. Some of the future is settled, while other aspects are unsettled. He knows each as it is.

 

[elected4ever]

God calls that which is not as it were in specific things that He purposes to bring to pass. This cannot be extrapolated to mean that He micromanages everything and determines lottery outcomes, scores for sports events, what every person will eat or wear, when they will have bowel movements, etc. from eternity past. Your possible vs actual observation is closer to the truth. He correctly knows reality as it is. Some of the future is settled, while other aspects are unsettled. He knows each as it is.

I don't think we will ever agree on that.

 

[godrulz]

I don't think we will ever agree on that.

I think there are at least two legitimate views on providence/sovereignty: Calvinism/determinism/meticulous control OR responsive, providential, creative control (macro vs micro managing). The weight of evidence, especially with verses where God does not always get His way or His will is resisted or rejected by some free moral agents, supports the latter as the biblical position (warfare vs blueprint model). The latter view explains how God could intend, desire, and will all to be saved, yet not all are saved in the end.

 

[Philetus]

OK, maybe I took it the wrong way. That is always a problem in trying to communicate. The way i look at things is that what God knew in the beginning did not actually occur until it occurred. Maybe you guys express that in the terms possible verses actual. God calls that which is not as though it were. So to me what has not happened is as though it is in the mind of God.

Is my salvation complete to the degree to which God describes it. I think not because Christ has not returned as yet. Though it has not occurred in real time is has already happened and is as though it has been completed. It is not just a probability that Christ will return it is an absolute certainty. It is my hope that I have not yet possessed but is more real than the ground we walk on. So we walk by faith and not by sight. I see a lot of "sight" theology but not a lot of faith theology.

I think you and godrulz are more in agreement than your words allow.

I think where we need to be careful is in differentiating what God knows as actual from that which God intends. The overwhelming evidence is in favor of being able to trust God when God says He will do a thing no ifs, ands or buts … He will do it. God has given us His word that if we believe in His Son Jesus we will be saved. It’s a done deal! It is trustworthy. Nothing can change it. In that sense it is absolute certainty for those who live by faith. But, you are correct that it has not yet happened, but, for those who believe the truth about God it might as well have. We have already passed from death to life and the life we live in Christ is Kingdom-life in the Kingdom that is both now and not yet.

 

[elected4ever]

I think you and godrulz are more in agreement than your words allow.

I think where we need to be careful is in differentiating what God knows as actual from that which God intends. The overwhelming evidence is in favor of being able to trust God when God says He will do a thing no ifs, ands or buts … He will do it. God has given us His word that if we believe in His Son Jesus we will be saved. It’s a done deal! It is trustworthy. Nothing can change it. In that sense it is absolute certainty for those who live by faith. But, you are correct that it has not yet happened, but, for those who believe the truth about God it might as well have. We have already passed from death to life and the life we live in Christ is Kingdom-life in the Kingdom that is both now and not yet.

I think this is one of the most difficult subjects to verbalize.

 

[elected4ever]

take the word, intent, for example. To me , humanly speaking, the word carries with it the idea of the possibility of failure. On the human level I would agree with godrulz or cleat in assigning a possibility of something not happening.. As the saying goes, "failure is riddled with good intentions." When the word is used as to God's intent then failure is not even a possibility.

 

[godrulz]

take the word, intent, for example. To me , humanly speaking, the word carries with it the idea of the possibility of failure. On the human level I would agree with godrulz or cleat in assigning a possibility of something not happening.. As the saying goes, "failure is riddled with good intentions." When the word is used as to God's intent then failure is not even a possibility.

I do not believe that God desired, intended, nor caused the Fall of Lucifer and Man.

I do not believe God intended the majority of humans to end up in the lake of fire.

I do not believe God intended Hitler to kill millions of Jews. He did not intend the rape and murder of children.

Is this not self-evident, based on His character and Word?

 

[Philetus]

take the word, intent, for example. To me , humanly speaking, the word carries with it the idea of the possibility of failure. On the human level I would agree with godrulz or cleat in assigning a possibility of something not happening.. As the saying goes, "failure is riddled with good intentions." When the word is used as to God's intent then failure is not even a possibility.

It is dificult to word.

God is not subject to human whim. In the case of God who possesses multiple omins a thing can be intended and carried off regardless of what humans do or don’t do. A divine intention can also be conditional. “IF you repent” or “If you do not repent” then I will…. God’s intentions are always good. The future God has planed for us is to bless and not harm us (as godrules points out).

It has been substantiated over and over that sometimes God intends something that is conditional and later changes His mind (the future is partly open due to such contengencies). In others God has declared and will do a thing without fail. Your concern imposes the human element on God in the conditionals, but, God is not fickle. God can be trusted.

Hence, it is important to differentiate between the conditional and unconditional ‘intentions’ of God. For Christians who are still in the world, but not of it, it is only posible to trust (i.e. have faith in) the consistancy of God to do what He has said He will unconditionally do. We must also respond to the conditional intents of God with equal confidence knowing that if we do not we will suffer the concequences in this life if not the life to come.

 

[Philetus]

I do not believe that God desired, intended, nor caused the Fall of Lucifer and Man.

I do not believe God intended the majority of humans to end up in the lake of fire.

I do not believe God intended Hitler to kill millions of Jews. He did not intend the rape and murder of children.

Is this not self-evident, based on His character and Word?

Yes it is! And I agree with you 100%. But we were not talking about human atrocities and sinfulness. We were talking about salvation by grace through faith.

The very fact that humans do not always do the will of God is evidence that God must either immediately destroy the world (or allow it to destroy itself) or enter into a loving, saving relationship with them.

I think when we start with the cross instead of the fall, we realize the difference. Calvinism seems to interpret the cross in light of the fall instead of the other way round. God ‘intends’ to have a loving relationship with us regardless of our sin. Therefore He graciously took our sin upon Himself and set us free from the original conditional intent “If you sin you will die” replacing it with “If you repent and believe you will live.” God’s intention to save us is conditional on our repentance.

 

[Bob Hill]

What God has on His agenda is the rapture of the Body of Christ.

Paul wrote about the rapture. 1 Thes 1:9,10 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

That coming tribulation is not for us members of the Body of Christ. We will be caught up (Raptured) to be with Him forever. 1 Thes 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

I believe that God is able to change His mind. The broad definition of this belief is “Open Theism”, but sometimes a broad paintbrush includes too much.

Please visit my website, biblicalanswers.com, and you will get a better idea of what I believe.

The open view of God is growing in America, but Calvinists do not like it one bit.

The most important thing that I advise you, who are new to the Open View, is to be sure you are focusing on God and striving to love Him. Then, allow Him to fill you with His fruit of the Spirit so you will continue in your love for your pastor, other Christians, and your friends who may disagree with your open view position.

We know that Christ will come for us some day according to many scripture passages.
1 Th 1:10; 5:9 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.

In Christ,
Bob Hill