Originally posted by natewood3
GIT,
I just realized I had not responded to this post yet. My apologies.
Now, a few points need to be made. First, you say the Spirit "helps" us do what we should have done the whole time, namely, repent and believe, but at the same time you want to say that we were totally able to do this before the Spirit began to convict us. Do you not see the incoherence of that? If you are totally able to do so on your own, then why do we need the Spirit's conviction and the Father's drawing? If we have to have it to be saved, then we obviously are unable to truly be saved unless GOD does something first.
Just cause we are able to do it doesn’t mean we don’t need help actually going through with it.
Secondly, you say you believe that we "fully understand and see Christ in all his glory AFTER we repent and believe, not before." I suppose you did not think this statement all the way through before you said it.
Why would anyone "repent and believe" in Someone who they do not see or understand, Someone who does not look gloriously beautiful and all-satisfying? Why would anyone come to Christ if they do not see Him? Why would anyone believe in Christ if they don't see Him as the all-satisfying Treasure they have been searching for? I agree that we do not FULLY understand or see Him, but we do see Him and understand what He done for us BEFORE we are saved, otherwise, we would never have any desire to be saved. God's initial activity of letting us "taste and see that the Lord is good" is what causes our desire for Him and our desire to believe in Him.
because we ALL know we have sinned. We ALL know we are guilty before God. We ALL know we cannot save ourselves. THAT is the reason we need Christ and why we should repent. You seem to think that one chooses Christ because they feel the need for him in their life, that he will make their lives better, he will enhance their daily experiences or something along that line. That is so false I don’t know where to begin. The reason one chooses Christ is because he needs salvation and that salvation is found only in Christ. It has NOTHING to do with seeing him as a treasure, seeing him as beautiful, thinking he’s what you need or anything like that. it’s about salvation, plain and simple.
First, the word "long" in that text means "desire." You are confusing terms. Second, if we are "desiring" the Word by just trying to make ourselves do it, then it is probably fake. I can "make myself desire" a food that I hate, but that is not real desire and longing. Desire comes from tasting and savoring. The more we taste the Word and savor the Word, the more we will desire it. The point it this: If God does not open our eyes to see His Word as great and marvellous, we won't desire it, yet we are commanded to do it.
We are not commanded to do it. God is simply stating that IF we don’t repent, we will continue as we are and WILL die. We don’t die because we didn’t repent as if not repenting were a sin. Rather, it’s because of the sin that we die and a lack of repentance leaves us in our sins.
You do not understand the relationship between God's actions and our actions if you think that is what you should do. That is like saying, "God gives and sustains life, so we should just stop breathing." That is crazy. Just because it is GOD that does the work in us, it does not follow for us to be lazy or to just "let go and let God." That is actually antibiblical.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May
God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the
sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
it is God who sanctifies us through his spirit. By “let go and let God” I mean that we have to surrender our abilities and rely totally on God to purify our hearts and renew us in him to live out our lives for his will. Trying to do it on our own is like spitting in the face of Christ.
Hence, you support my argument that we would never see Christ or even have the desire to look and rely on Him without God's grace and God's decisive actions before our dependent actions. Therefore, how are we not totally unable to come to Christ unless God performs an awesome miracle in our hearts first?
Because it’s COMMON grace, not irresistible grace!
If I give thanks for the loss of my wife, and I am not really feeling thankful, it is hypocritical GIT!!! True gratitude is there when it is there, and when it isn't, it just isn't there. If you just try to muster up some "gratitude" without truly being thankful and feeling thankful in your heart, it is pseudo-gratitude. It is hypocritical.
If you can’t genuinely give thanks then you should not pretend to. God is not mocked. Either be thankful, or acknowledge that you aren’t and examine why you are not so as to remedy the situation.
The problem with your example is that your cat cannot swim across because it is PHYSICALLY unable to do it. We cannot come to Christ because we are MORALLY unable to do so. It is not as if God is not allowing some people to come to Him who would have came had they been given the opportunity. No one seeks God. No one understands spiritual things. No one sees the Cross as beautiful. Why? Because they don't WANT to and they are UNABLE to do so because of their sinfulness, corruption, and rebellion. Do not make it as though it is God's fault that we are sinful. As I have always said, we make choices and we choose sin. It is OUR fault we cannot come to Christ. That does NOT in any way lessen weight of the command, "Repent and believe."
You are the one who says we are unable to swim. I say we are able, but usually unwilling.
Now, in relation to what I have said above: How would a person with a deceitful and wicked heart ever turn to Christ? If we can turn to him with a sinful heart, why do we need a new heart?
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
You say this verse only refers to God's wisdom. I said the Gospel is the wisdom of God. You said it is not.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
That whole context of 1 Cor. 1 and 2 is speaking of the Gospel of Christ, and how it is considered the wisdom of God and is foolishness to the world.
Oh really? Then why does Paul say this?
1 Corinthians 3:1
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly–mere infants in Christ.
He says that his brothers (those who had accepted the gospel) could not be regarded as spiritual, even though they should’ve been. If the gospel was a spiritual thing, then there is no reason why Paul would’ve said that. the people were not understanding the spiritual things, but they had already accepted the gospel. This means the gospel is different from the spiritual things.
If one does not repent, it is because he/she hasn't seen Christ as the all-satisfying Treasure that he/she has always been searching for, because when he/she does, they sell all they have to get it.
It’s because they CHOOSE not to. Repenting has nothing to do with how we see Christ. It has to do with knowing we are sinners and choosing to no longer live that way and accept Christ as our savior for our sins.
I DO NOT DENY FREE WILL! I DO NOT DENY FREE WILL! One more time? I DO NOT DENY FREE WILL!
Oh so now you deny exhaustive foreknowledge? In case you forgot, they are mutually exclusive concepts.
You keep stressing that Christ didn't literally bore our sins, but that He bore the wrath of our sins. What you do not seem to understand is this: How can Christ bear the "wrath" for sins that were not yet know? God just gave Christ some general wrath for some general sin for some general people? Paul said that Christ gave Himself for "me." Christ cannot bear Paul's wrath unless God already knew all the sins Paul would ever commit, and therefore be able to remove all the wrath standing between Paul and God.
The wages of sin is DEATH. Whatever sin we commit, it’s wages is DEATH. Thus, Jesus can pay for them all in one death.
I love how you ignored the text.
Joh 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
Christ died to give life to ALL THOSE GIVEN to Him by the Father?
Who are "all those given to Him by the Father"?
All those who repent and believe.
You imply we "become predstined," which seems, at least to me, totally contradictory. How can we become something that took place before we ever existed?
It’s a general predestination that becomes applied to you once you enter into the group per the conditions established beforehand. In other words, the actions were predestined, but to whom they apply was not. Thus, sanctification was predestined to all who believe from eternity past. However, those who are sanctified was not. When they believe, they are predestined to be sanctified.
Neither one of these texts state God works "with" us:
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Phi 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
God does not work around your free will; He works in it to do HIS will and HIS good pleasure. Big difference than Him working "with" us.
Neither one says God takes away our free will. Remember, we are the ones who repent in the first place. We surrender our wills to God at that point and allow God to work in us.
How would you be "free" to go to class if God "causes you to stay asleep"?
Cause free means “able to act as one decides in a given circumstance”. If you are asleep, there is no act able to be done. Free will is non-existence, so to speak. Free will just means that you are conscious and able to decide given a choice. What choice is there about sleep? When you are tired, you sleep. If God puts you to sleep, then it’s not your free will that’s being overridden, just your ability to exercise that. it’s like a hurricane hitting your house. Free will isn’t affected at all, just what you can do with it and what choices you have.
If we produce that which is pleasing in His sight on our own, you know who will get glory and praise? US!!! However, if it is God who gives and produces that which is pleasing in His sight IN us and through us, then GOD gets the glory. The Giver gets the glory.
Oooooooo no we don’t. we don’t because it is BOTH God and us who does it. the ONLY way we could claim any glory is if it was ALL us. But since it’s God who works IN us to produce good fruit that we do, we must give him the glory.
Pro 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.
How does this go along with what you said above?
What’s the problem?
2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before time began,
"Before time" began seems like a LONG "time" ago. Maybe, from all eternity (as other translators translate it)? How much did it involve? Well, look at the hundreds of prophecies and it seems as though all the details were included.
Question: How can God ordain that He would save us through the cross before time began, being He didn't even know Adam and Eve had sinned or would sin, and therefore, we did not need a Savior yet? Why would God ordain the cross before time began if He didn't know the cross would even be needed?
I agree that it was from eternity past, but in a different sense. God ordained it as the plan of salvation that would be brought to mankind not WHEN they sinned, but IF they sinned. The prophecies ALL came AFTER man sinned, not before. Why would God ordain it before man sinned? Because God plans ahead…. :chuckle:
You say God CAN stop you from thinking an evil thought, but what you seem to ignore is the fact that God must KNOW that you are going to think that evil thought if He has the ability to stop the thought. Whether or not God WILL is irrelevant in this issue. You say God CAN stop a person from thinking an evil thought. God must KNOW the evil thought will take place beforehand in order to be able to stop the evil thought.
Why? Where do evil thoughts come from? Partly the devil, partly temptations, and partly our own desires. Now if God restrains Satan, removes the temptations and has us focus on something good for a while, then he can stop us from having evil thoughts. However, since we have free will I don’t believe he will stop us from having evil thoughts at all.
In other words, you punted on Prov. 16:9...
If you think you can establish the doctrine you want to on that one verse then you have bigger issues.
So Pharaoh COULD HAVE repented and changed everything?
Sure.
Blessings,
GIT
