ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

boogerhead

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

sounds like you agree with me. do you believe God is self seeking or not?

i don't agree with you here b/c God glorifies Himself...everything He does is for His purposes to manifest His glory throughout the world...He created us for His glory
Isaiah 43:6-7
Bring my sons from afar and my daughers from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory.

and we benefit from that b/c He glorifies Himself through blessing us (with things that we want and sometimes with things that we don't want but can learn from and come to know and love Him and trust in Him better like when He refined Israel)...
Isaiah 48:11
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

who's glory do you think God is seeking here??? the glory of His people that He created for Himself? of course not...God glorifies Himself
 

boogerhead

New member
Originally posted by Big Finn

Christ lived only for others. He was the epitomy of selflessness, yet His Father is self-seeking. Thus Christ and His Father are divided. They live with entirely different principles at the very heart of their beings. Jesus only revealed His own character, He didn't reveal who His Father is at all. He couldn't, for you can't see self-seeking in selflessness. These two concepts are diametrically opposed. Thus Christ and His Father are diametrically opposed.

Wow. The tangled webs we weave....

Christ lived for the glory of God..for God's purpose...
Matthew 26:39
And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

through fulfilling God's purpose and manifesting His glory, Jesus "lived for others"...but living for God and God's will came first...the benefits and blessings we recieved were secondary to God glorifying Himself...
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Boogerhead,

If what God does glorifies Him that's one thing but if His glorification is His motive for having done it then that makes Him selfish and unloving.
Everything God does is done out of love, for God is love. Love is not self seeking and so therefore God is not self seeking. However everything done out of love glorifies God so you might say that everything that God does glorifies Himself BECAUSE He does not seek to glorify Himself.
Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Re: hmmmm

Re: hmmmm

Originally posted by add yasaf

Knight quote - At least guys like Hilston and even Rolf have the courtesy to acknowledge those that are debating them.



You might have spoken too soon Knight


Rolf you didn't answer this post - http://www.theologyonline.com/forum...4206#post544206
I am not saying Rolf and Hilston respond to EVERYTHING... heck... I don't even do that! :D

However... Rolf and Hilston make a legitimate attempt to dialogue (in my opinion).
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

...so you might say that everything that God does glorifies Himself BECAUSE He does not seek to glorify Himself.
Get it?
Who's glory does He seek Clete? Yours?
 

Z Man

New member
Clete,

I think we're done. There is no way I can have a debate with someone if they do not believe that the Scriptures are the final authority:

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

First, in response to something you said to Knight, “Sola Scriptura” is not in the Bible and so that portion of your theology is also self defeating. Theology must be based on BOTH Scripture and sound reason. I don’t know who it was, but someone smarter than me once said, “Theology is a logos about the theos, the logic of God. Theology is a rational discourse about God.” Thus just coming up with a collection of verses that seem to support your position is not sufficient to prove your thesis.

BTW, you may not have been so 'ugly' the other day, but you made up for it today.

God bless.

:zman:
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Big Finn

All you do when you post is prove that you don't know God. "God so loved the world that He gave..." is the Biblical picture of God. Your version of God is: God so loved Himself ....
***shakes head in wonderment at the power of living in an African river***
Big Finn,

Please, for the sake of your dignity and intellect, please read this article.

God bless.

:zman:
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

:kookoo:
Was that you or your daughter that just posted?

You said, "[God] does not seek to glorify Himself". Then who does He seek to 'glorify' Clete? Answer the question, or recant your idiotic statement.
 

Z Man

New member
You know, I thought I was one of the youngest guys posting up here, besides GIT. But for crying out loud, I feel like I'm debating against pre-schoolers!

STOP BEING A BUNCH OF BABIES AND START BEING GODLY MEN!! I can't stand you guys whining everytime I present Scripture.

*wahhh! wahhh! You can't keep using Scripture all the time! You have to use logic too! wahhh! wahhh!*

*wahhh! wahhh! Z Man's questions are too hard! wahhh! He's just trying to 'muddy' the issue! wahhh!*


Are there any men out there who are willing to debate with maturity, and are not afraid to use/go over Scripture???
 

add yasaf

New member
issues

issues

Z Man, I myself took up that challenge with you before. A good way of looking at things is that of St. Vincent of Lerins

Here, it may be, someone will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and is in itself abundantly sufficient, what need is there to join to it the interpretation of the Church? The answer is that because of the very depth of Scripture all men do not place one identical interpretation upon it. The statements of the same writer are explained by different men in different ways, so much so that it seems almost possible to extract from it as many opinions as there are men.

Novatian expounds in one way, Sabellius in another, Donatus in another, Arius, Eunomius and Macedonius in another, Photinus, Apollinaris and Priscillian in another, Jovinian, Pelagius and Caelestius in another, and latterly Nestorius in another. Therefore, because of the intricacies of error, which is so multiform, there is great need for the laying down of a rule for the exposition of Prophets and Apostles in accordance with the standard of the interpretation of the Church Catholic.

(3) Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.


What happened in the N.T. church when doctrine came up for debate? They had a council - Acts 15. Ironically Vincent of Lerins who came up with this great idea, ended up being ex-communicated by his own rule!

He was semi-pelagian and was condemned at a council

If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is,
both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through
the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of
the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject
to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius - against Vincent

And also against Augustine, though they never ex-communicated him -

We not only do not believe that any are
foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with
utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe
so evil a thing, they are anathema.


So the solution is to get the majority opinion of true Christian Bible scholars who believe in the inspiration of Scripture to understand these issues better.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Z Man

You know, I thought I was one of the youngest guys posting up here, besides GIT. But for crying out loud, I feel like I'm debating against pre-schoolers!

STOP BEING A BUNCH OF BABIES AND START BEING GODLY MEN!! I can't stand you guys whining everytime I present Scripture.

*wahhh! wahhh! You can't keep using Scripture all the time! You have to use logic too! wahhh! wahhh!*

*wahhh! wahhh! Z Man's questions are too hard! wahhh! He's just trying to 'muddy' the issue! wahhh!*


Are there any men out there who are willing to debate with maturity, and are not afraid to use/go over Scripture???
ROTFL... :hammer:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Z Man,

You are parilously close to making my ignore list. You've become a laughing stock and a waste of my time. I could make better progress in a discussion with my four year old daughter than I am with you right now.
 
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Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

You are parilously close to making my ignore list. You've become a laughing stock and a waste of my time. I could make better progress in a discussion with my four year old daughter than I am with you right now.
Z Man is amazingly "Freak-ish" in his approach wouldn't you say?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Originally posted by Knight

Z Man is amazingly "Freak-ish" in his approach wouldn't you say?

Perhaps we could get Freak to exorcise Duder out of Z Man's mind!
 
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God_Is_Truth

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

either love IS self seeking or love IS NOT self seeking.

it's logically incoherent to say that God is love and that love is not self seeking but yet somehow God is self seeking.

is love self seeking or not Z Man?

is God love or not Z Man?

is God self seeking or not Z Man?
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

is love self seeking or not Z Man?

is God love or not Z Man?

is God self seeking or not Z Man?
You don't get it still?

When God glorifies Himself, He is showing us love. Nothing satisfies us, or magnifies God, more than the work Christ did at the cross. There is no conflict between our passion for joy and God's passion for His own glory.
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Originally posted by Z Man

You don't get it still?

When God glorifies Himself, He is showing us love. Nothing satisfies us, or magnifies God, more than the work Christ did at the cross. There is no conflict between our passion for joy and God's passion for His own glory.

i am not questioning what God's glory does to him when it's received, i am questioning the motives of the actions that bring him glory.

see the difference?

once again........

is love self seeking or not Z Man?

is God love or not Z Man?

is God self seeking or not Z Man?
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

You are parilously close to making my ignore list.
Why? Because I've made you 'uncomfortable' regarding your beliefs? I understand. I mean, emotions tend to run high when you feel your man-centered world crumbling around you...
I could make better progress in a discussion with my four year old daughter than I am with you right now.
I would tend to think so, because it seems lately that you have a problem in thinking 'maturely' and as a Godly man:
Oh yeah you got me Z Man! Way to take my statements completely out of the context of the discussion and rip them apart. You’re so wise and wonderful, how could I have ever doubted your obvious insight and insurmountable knowledge of the Scripture. :rolleyes:
I claim that because that’s precisely what you do, you filthy blaspheming jerk! It not my opinion its fact!
I’ll tell you why, because you have no other choice accept to admit that you have caught with your pants around your knees!
SAYING IT DOESN’T MAKE IT SO!!!
Theology must be based on BOTH Scripture and sound reason.
Originally posted by Z Man

Who's glory does [God] seek, Clete? Yours?
:kookoo:
Perhaps we could get Freak to exorcise Duder out of Z Man's mind!
Clete,

You know that God seeks after His own glory; you know you made a stupid comment that "God does not seek to glorify Himself". That's why you won't answer my question, because you knows your wrong, and you don't wanna make yourself look like a fool by admitting your mistake.

Instead of constantly whining, and dishing out childish comments and 'slanderous' remarks, why don't you stand up and confront Scripture and admit your mistakes? You wouldn't be a fool; rather, it would prove you are a real man...

God bless.

:zman:
 
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