ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Been there... done that.
God_Is_Truth
New member
yes, i did mess up :doh: i should have said "love is NOT self seeking" instead of "love IS self seeking". i wrote that kinda tired so i suppose i deserve it.
now that we got that straigtened out...
we are in agreement that 1) God does not contradict his own character, 2) any theology that leads to God contradicting his own character is wrong.
so, Z Man, you hold that God is self seeking, seeking his own glory. the bible says that God is love and that love is not self seeking. do you agree with what the bible says? if so, your theology is wrong. if not, the bible is.
so are you ready to admit that your theology is wrong in this aspect? or do you believe the bible is wrong?
we're all waiting......
Z Man
New member
You proved Scripture wrong? Where?
Seriously Knight, when reading the Word of God, how can you NOT see a God who is absolutely Sovereign and predestines according to His foreknowledge? May I humbly suggest to you that you read this article.
Thanks, and God bless.
:zman:
GIT,
How can you even have a discussion of Biblical issues with someone who denies that the revelation of the principles that God has laid down for describing love, and says that if we aren't like this then our Christianity is worthless don't apply to God's character????
And here I've thought the goal of the Christian life was Christ-likeness, because that's what God is like. You know, be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect and all that advice that Christ gave. Seems as if Jesus was just flapping his gums to hear His teeth rattle because that's meaningless. No Biblical description of love that we know of can actually describe God's "love". It's self-seeking, and contradictory to every Biblical description of love.
Funny how that is, don't ya think, GIT?
boogerhead
New member
good question...john piper has an excellent response to this very question which i will attempt to paraphrase...
while verses like 1 Corinthians 10:24, 33 and 1 Corinthians 13:5 and Romans 15:1-3 in and of themselves impresses that we are to free ourselves of self-interest when it comes to loving and caring for others, there is cause to not assume that this means absolutely would it be wrong to enjoy being loving when we take all of the context into account...
in 1 Corinthians 13:6 we see that love rejoices in truth or righteousness so it cannot be disinterested or indifferent to its own joy...to rejoice is to get joy from it which is "gain" and paul encourages our pursuit of this "gain" when he says that he gains nothing have he not love...
love is more than good deeds...can you really say that we are not to delight in loving others? of course not...look at the macedonians who begged paul to give to the church of jerusalem though they themselves were in extreme poverty...paul stresses that the macedonians loved sacficing in order to meet the needs of others...the loved to love...they delighted in it though they denied themselves and sought not their own...
in 2 Corinthians 9:7 we see that God loves a cheerful giver...and God does not like one who "reluctantly" gives...similarly when we love others, though we are denying ourselves, we are still to cheerfully love and delight in it...
when paul says that we shouldn't please ourselves but instead edify our neighbors, he's not saying that we shouldn't seek joy from edifying others but rather that this joy from edifying others should free us of private pleasure that results in an indifference to the good of others...
john piper describes this genuine love well when he says, "Love does not seek its own private, limited joy, but instead seeks its own joy in the good-the salvation and edification- of others."...this is how God loves...He actually delights to love
Jeremiah 9:24
"I am the Lord, who practice steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth; for in these things I delight," says the Lord.
piper goes on further...but i think these verses and thoughts well put how love does seek a joy from putting others first...
Christ lived only for others. He was the epitomy of selflessness, yet His Father is self-seeking. Thus Christ and His Father are divided. They live with entirely different principles at the very heart of their beings. Jesus only revealed His own character, He didn't reveal who His Father is at all. He couldn't, for you can't see self-seeking in selflessness. These two concepts are diametrically opposed. Thus Christ and His Father are diametrically opposed.
Wow. The tangled webs we weave....
boogerhead,
I haven't a clue as to who John Piper is but that is as big a bunch of garbage as zman's saying that God's love can't be understood by human terms of love. You need to stop reading theologians and start reading your Bible.
The natural result of loving others is joy. It is part and parcel of the fruit of the Spirit. There is joy in loving others. There is no getting around it.
I haven't a clue as to who John Piper is but that is as big a bunch of garbage as zman's saying that God's love can't be understood by human terms of love. You need to stop reading theologians and start reading your Bible.
The natural result of loving others is joy. It is part and parcel of the fruit of the Spirit. There is joy in loving others. There is no getting around it.
Z Man
New member
Bigg Finn,
You need to get out of your 'man-centered' theology before it destroys you. You think Christ died to make much of you? That it was all about you? Think again...
Christ died to the glory of the Father. He died to forgive our sins so that we could have joy in Him, thus glorify His name forever. God died for His glory. When God seeks to display His glory, He is giving us what we desire most; Himself. And in doing that, He is loving us. For God, self-exaltation is the most loving act in the universe.
"The greatest news in all the world is that there is no final conflict between my passion for joy and God's passion for his glory. The knot that ties these together is the truth that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Jesus Christ died and rose again to forgive the treason of our souls, which have turned from savoring God to savoring self. In the cross of Christ, God rescues us from the house of mirrors and leads us out to the mountains and canyons of his majesty. Nothing satisfies us – or magnifies him – more."
- John Piper
You need to get out of your 'man-centered' theology before it destroys you. You think Christ died to make much of you? That it was all about you? Think again...
Christ died to the glory of the Father. He died to forgive our sins so that we could have joy in Him, thus glorify His name forever. God died for His glory. When God seeks to display His glory, He is giving us what we desire most; Himself. And in doing that, He is loving us. For God, self-exaltation is the most loving act in the universe.
"The greatest news in all the world is that there is no final conflict between my passion for joy and God's passion for his glory. The knot that ties these together is the truth that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Jesus Christ died and rose again to forgive the treason of our souls, which have turned from savoring God to savoring self. In the cross of Christ, God rescues us from the house of mirrors and leads us out to the mountains and canyons of his majesty. Nothing satisfies us – or magnifies him – more."
- John Piper
God_Is_Truth
New member
either love IS self seeking or love IS NOT self seeking.
it's logically incoherent to say that God is love and that love is not self seeking but yet somehow God is self seeking.
God_Is_Truth
New member
sounds like you agree with me. do you believe God is self seeking or not?
God_Is_Truth
New member
very good point. :thumb:
Does he have a choice?
God_Is_Truth
New member
Originally posted by Knight
Does he have a choice?
Did Z Man?
boogerhead,
All I can say is, ugh. I did misread what Piper said. For some reason I read that as saying there is not joy in seeking to server others. My humble apologies.
I guess I've just read too much in the last few weeks. I'm reading 3 different books on IT, learning Debian and the bash shell, and posting here. I guess it's time a take a break and slow down for a while from my 10 - 12 hours a day of study. I'm obviously getting fried.
All I can say is, ugh. I did misread what Piper said. For some reason I read that as saying there is not joy in seeking to server others. My humble apologies. I guess I've just read too much in the last few weeks. I'm reading 3 different books on IT, learning Debian and the bash shell, and posting here. I guess it's time a take a break and slow down for a while from my 10 - 12 hours a day of study. I'm obviously getting fried.
This is impossible to respond to because it is self-contradictory. How is it possible for someone to make someone do something then punish them having done it and not be unjust without redefining the word "unjust"?
This will be the last post where I ask this question. If you do not directly answer it in a coherent way, I'm finished with you.
This is not what I said! Is this all you know how to do, twist everything anybody says so you can rip it apart and make yourself look good (to yourself).
I hold you guilty of lying Z Man. You know good and well that I do not think that "the Scriptures do not matter". What I do believe is that debating over countless details within Scripture is profitless unless you can understand the larger issue that have bearing on those details which you prove with your next statement.
Do we need to go over the arguments about logic again Z Man? Have you forgotten them already? Remember what was said about either/or logic vs. both/and logic? Remember how it was established that both/and logic doesn't work? Remember the law of non-contradiction? Remember how the power of those arguments sent you back stepping to the point of almost completely reversing yourself on the issue? Remember how I've been complaining that you like to pretend like the last 1000 posts never happened?
Well your doing it again Z Man. You complain that what we believe contradicts Scripture and that we read our beliefs into the text. Well what you believe is self-contradictory! So either the Bible contradicts itself or you are the one reading into the text!
I will not answer this question Z Man, it's nonsense! God not only does not ordain sin He CANNOT ordain sin. The whole question is based on a false premise! How can you not understand that? Lion answered this question rather thoroughly already but you ignored it, but even if this is all the information we had we could still know that what God told David to do was not sinful by virtue of the fact that God told him to do it. Obeying God is not sin! Duh!
I would sooner assume that there was missing information (I'm not saying that there actually is) than assume that God did as you are suggesting.
Now I have already answered this directly! Why are you ignoring what I say? I think that this is likely to be my last post in response to you Z Man, I’m wasting my time.
This has also been answered! Are you asleep?
Liar. I will not be drawn into this nonsense. Just because you say that these depict God as unjust doesn’t mean that they do.
Oh yeah you got me Z Man! Way to take my statements completely out of the context of the discussion and rip them apart. You’re so wise and wonderful, how could I have ever doubted your obvious insight and insurmountable knowledge of the Scripture.
I claim that because that’s precisely what you do, you filthy blaspheming jerk! It not my opinion its fact! It’s fact based on what you have said and based on the definition of the words EVIL and JUSTICE and whole list of other words that you must redefine for my claim to be disproved. You can say that you do not claim this all you want but I know what evil is and I know what justice is and I know that God is not unjust and that He is incapable of evil. You and Calvinism in general make God the very author of evil and that is the chief reason why I hate it. It blasphemes God
The why am I having to repeat myself four hundred times? Why are you arguing against things that I obviously do not believe? Why haven’t even attempted to respond to the logical progression that was made that inescapably leads to the destruction of your position? Why do you act as if the first 900 post of this thread never happened?
I’ll tell you why, because you have no other choice accept to admit that you have caught with your pants around your knees! You are stuck with only two alternatives, either admit that Calvinism is hopelessly irrational or ignore that fact and start the whole debate over from scratch by having everyone try to interpret an endless list of individual passages of Scripture that do not have to be interpreted the way you interpret them.
Using big bold letters doesn’t help you Z Man! Say it loud, say it soft, say it in your head, or from the roof tops, say it over and over and over again and it will still not be so. Why?
Come one everybody, say it with me…
SAYING IT DOESN’T MAKE IT SO!!!
First, in response to something you said to Knight, “Sola Scriptura” is not in the Bible and so that portion of your theology is also self defeating. Theology must be based on BOTH Scripture and sound reason. I don’t know who it was, but someone smarter than me once said, “Theology is a logos about the theos, the logic of God. Theology is a rational discourse about God.” Thus just coming up with a collection of verses that seem to support your position is not sufficient to prove your thesis.
On the contrary, you have not even responded to my argument! You have just ignored it and played like you never even said what I was arguing against! Well, this will be the end of that! You will either respond to my argument directly or admit that you cannot or else I will find somewhere else to spend my time.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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boogerhead
New member
Originally posted by Big Finn
boogerhead,
I guess I've just read too much in the last few weeks. I'm reading 3 different books on IT, learning Debian and the bash shell, and posting here. I guess it's time a take a break and slow down for a while from my 10 - 12 hours a day of study. I'm obviously getting fried.
no problem...
add yasaf
New member
hmmmm
hmmmm
Knight quote - At least guys like Hilston and even Rolf have the courtesy to acknowledge those that are debating them.
You might have spoken too soon Knight
Rolf you didn't answer this post - http://www.theologyonline.com/forum...4206#post544206
hmmmm
Knight quote - At least guys like Hilston and even Rolf have the courtesy to acknowledge those that are debating them.
You might have spoken too soon Knight
Rolf you didn't answer this post - http://www.theologyonline.com/forum...4206#post544206