ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
God_Is_Truth
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....
grace, mercy, love.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....
grace, mercy, love.
Ya know Z Man.... I think you are rude.
And your kinda acting like a jerk.
I would appreciate if you tried a little harder to dialog with those your debating. I have been asking you a couple questions and you don't respond. At least I give you the courtesy of responding to your questions.
Furthermore....
I do not appreciate your accuization that I lied. My position is clear and there is no lie. Maybe your just having a hard time grasping my simple and direct answers?
I request that you please apologize.
Poly
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No, YOU are implying this and very unfairly I might add. I never thought you would stoop to some of the tactics I've seen of you here lately. You use unfair methods and it's starting to get old.
I reject the notion that God would take the boy's life to bring about His glory. Why? Because the God I know is powerful enough to bring His glory about without resorting to the taking of an innocent life which He happens to speak against.
There's that unfair Zman tactic again. I don't and you know it. Just because I claim that God does not have to take a boy's life for His glory does not mean I'm putting the boy's life above God's.
So this was the only way? ONLY?? Aren't you limiting God? I thought this was the all powerful God we were talking about here. Of course there is another way, remember? He can do anything. He can make these relatives turn to Him by simply changing their will. Now they hate Him, now they love Him. It's supposed to be just that simple with an all powerful God right? If it's that simple and God does it through the death of a boy, then God preferred the death over the simple changing of their hearts.
There was a HUGE need in Christ being killed! What is the need in the boy being killed? And don't say that it was to bring about the salvation of the relatives. I've already shown that God had no need of the death since He can just speak and their hearts would be turned.
Greywolf
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Lamentations 3:38
Maybe I misunderstand this passage, but it seems to say that God does do evil.
Secondly, according to the Christian view of God, would it even be possible for God to do evil? I thought that God was outside/above his law, so how would one be able to tell if something that God did was evil or not?
Maybe I misunderstand this passage, but it seems to say that God does do evil.
Secondly, according to the Christian view of God, would it even be possible for God to do evil? I thought that God was outside/above his law, so how would one be able to tell if something that God did was evil or not?
Thanks for the input Greywolf. Many times in the Bible Gods speaks of bringing calamity and such upon man and this is always in reference to either the wicked or the unrepentant.
In the case of Lamentations 3:38 it is explained that it IS fair for the unrepentant to be punished for their sins as that is the very essence of justice.
Read the passage in context....
Lamentations 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed? 39 Why should a living man complain, A man for the punishment of his sins? 40 Let us search out and examine our ways, And turn back to the LORD; 41 Let us lift our hearts and hands To God in heaven.
Again... thanks for the input!
You said it was granites post not Z Mans.
So it was Z Man's post you wanted me to respond to right?
I already responded to that post of Z Man about 10 times!
One more time....
Every instance that Z Man brings up is God punishing the wicked or the unrepentant. No one is arguing that God doesn't punish the wicked and the unrepentant.
How many times do I (and others) need to answer that point?
Furthermore... is it even an issue?
Who in this debate doesn't think that God punishes the wicked or the unrepentant???? None that I know of.
Was there something else you would like me to respond to?
If God were to do evil He would longer be the righteous God described in the Bible.
God says His righteousness will endure forever....
The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. - Psalms 119:160
God's righteous character DOES NOT CHANGE...
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. - Hebrews 13:8
However... your question is an excellent one as there are many Christians who preach that God is in fact the author of sin and the mastermind behind ALL actions...... even the evil ones!!! :shocked:
boogerhead
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Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Judges 9:23, 24
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren.
1 Samuel 16:14, 15
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
Job 42:11
Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
boogerhead
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Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
1Way
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boogerhead - Hello, hello, this is one of my pet things. Check other translations and I'm quite sure you will find a good deal of divergence away from the KJV tradition of saying that God does evil. Most say God does calamity or brings disaster or destruction, or ruin, etc.
In the Hebrew, the more (or most) common word for evil (that is, moral bad) is the same word used for righteous punishment/destruction/ruin/calamity, and in one case, the same word was totally amoral, representing uncomely spots or blemishes on animals! So the moral nature of the word is derived by it's contextual use. God's righteousness is part of God's eternal and faithful character and ways, so it is contradictory to suggest that God does (moral) evil, yet God does punish or destroy (by way of ruin or calamity) against the wicked. And it is always righteous and good to oppose evil.
Lastly, it is claimed that in old English, the use of the word "evil" had a broader sense of use, where it may not naturally imply a moral bad, it may mean calamity, etc., so (for example) the KJV tradition is not simply wrong, but trying to assume that God does moral evil, is absolutely wrong, it is blasphemy to oppose the very nature of God by contradiction. God is good, He does not do moral evil, He brings ruin and destruction and calamity, which are all good things in response to evil people.
No credible source can rightly maintain that God does moral evil, the bible is only clear on the holy nature of God and His ways. Do not impugn God with (moral) evil. Sure, taking that sort of meaning out of context may be convenient for deterministic Calvinist types, but the text does not support such a horrific and ungodly thing.
Please stand corrected.
In the Hebrew, the more (or most) common word for evil (that is, moral bad) is the same word used for righteous punishment/destruction/ruin/calamity, and in one case, the same word was totally amoral, representing uncomely spots or blemishes on animals! So the moral nature of the word is derived by it's contextual use. God's righteousness is part of God's eternal and faithful character and ways, so it is contradictory to suggest that God does (moral) evil, yet God does punish or destroy (by way of ruin or calamity) against the wicked. And it is always righteous and good to oppose evil.
Lastly, it is claimed that in old English, the use of the word "evil" had a broader sense of use, where it may not naturally imply a moral bad, it may mean calamity, etc., so (for example) the KJV tradition is not simply wrong, but trying to assume that God does moral evil, is absolutely wrong, it is blasphemy to oppose the very nature of God by contradiction. God is good, He does not do moral evil, He brings ruin and destruction and calamity, which are all good things in response to evil people.
No credible source can rightly maintain that God does moral evil, the bible is only clear on the holy nature of God and His ways. Do not impugn God with (moral) evil. Sure, taking that sort of meaning out of context may be convenient for deterministic Calvinist types, but the text does not support such a horrific and ungodly thing.
Please stand corrected.
Z Man
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So is He not as powerful as you believe since He had His only Son killed? Couldn't there have been another way than to spill innocent blood?
If you reject that God would take a human life to display His glory, why do you not reject that He would take His own life to display His glory? Is human life more valuable than Christ's?
1Way... as usual.... I couldn't have said it better myself! :BRAVO:
And I would add that.....
From the perspective of the wicked - or the ones God is punishing - it might seem like evil has come upon them. But it's just God's wrath! God's wrath being dispensed upon you would be far more scary than Satan's wrath!
It's sorta like the hero in a movie when he is about to wipe out the bad dudes he might say..... "You wanna see some evil??? Well your about to see some evil." The good guy isn't all of the sudden a bad guy! Yet the good guy is telling the bad guy in terms he can understand that he is about to inflict his wrath upon them!
But the point 1Way made stands the tallest....
God isn't performing morally evil actions as that would be sinful and God doesn't sin. God does however bring calamity and woe upon those that reject Him and that is sometimes translated as "evil".
And I would add that.....
From the perspective of the wicked - or the ones God is punishing - it might seem like evil has come upon them. But it's just God's wrath! God's wrath being dispensed upon you would be far more scary than Satan's wrath!
It's sorta like the hero in a movie when he is about to wipe out the bad dudes he might say..... "You wanna see some evil??? Well your about to see some evil." The good guy isn't all of the sudden a bad guy! Yet the good guy is telling the bad guy in terms he can understand that he is about to inflict his wrath upon them!
But the point 1Way made stands the tallest....
God isn't performing morally evil actions as that would be sinful and God doesn't sin. God does however bring calamity and woe upon those that reject Him and that is sometimes translated as "evil".
Z Man
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:darwinsm:
Knight,
that's not the point, and you know it! HAHA! It's hilarious to see you squirm like this, avoiding the huge mistake that you have gravely made. You told everyone at the beginning of this thread that a woman was stupid for claiming God had given her cancer. You said that you do not believe that God gives people diseases; that they just come out of no where (post 216) . Now, my point in posting those passages of Scripture were to prove that you were wrong my friend. That God does indeed 'give' people diseases and that they don't just come out of 'no where'. You have yet to respond to those passages, admitting that God does indeed give people diseases and that you were wrong.
TOL is still waiting. Come on, prove you're a man. Admit your mistake and let's move on...
- click here for references to the debate between Knight and I
DOES ANYONE ELSE HERE AGREE THAT KNIGHT IS WRONG FOR CLAIMING THAT GOD DOES NOT GIVE PEOPLE DISEASES? DO NOT THE SCRIPTURES STATE OTHERWISE?
Le 26:16
I also will do this to you: I [the Lord] will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18
...behold, the Lord will strike your people with a serious affliction--your children, your wives, and all your possessions; and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day. ... After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.
De 7:15
And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay [afflictions and disease] on all those who hate you.
De 28:61
Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.
John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
Z Man
New member
1 Way,
if you assume that the Calvies believe God morally sins, and that we support that view, you are gravely mistaken my friend! God cannot do evil! If He kills someone, it's not evil! As Knight has said, so do I agree:
Amen. However, I would also like to add that not only does God bring calamity upon the wicked, but He also afflicts the righteous! Therefore, it is perfectly ok for Job to credit God for his sufferings, just as it is perfectly ok for the woman with cancer to do the same!
There is no evidence (in fact just the opposte) that Jesus caused this illness!!!
Read the chapter Z Man....
John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.” 4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was.
The glory to be shown was that Jesus could HEAL!!! Not that Jesus gave the sickness so He could later heal it. That's just bizarre and unbiblical!
You continue...
God is warning those that would reject His commandments....
Read the preceding verse and see for yourself...
Leviticus 26:15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
Again.... no one is arguing that God punishes the wicked.
I have only stated that very statement about 20 times now.
What is your hang up?
See above.
See above.
Hi Clete,
It seems to me that Open View gives God a pass. I’m not talking about babysitting every stubbed toe and stolen Tic Tac box. I’m talking about the heinous murder of innocents at the hands of evil men, cutting short the lives of those who might otherwise believe in Jesus. If the Open View God really loves them and wants them to be saved, why doesn’t He do something about it -- secretly -- to prolong their lives and to give them further opportunities to accept Him?
I realize there are lots of posts here, Clete. I’ve already answered this, but will do so again. If it is true that the Open View God wants as many people saved as possible, and if it is true that miraculous interventions tend to repel rather than attract followers, then it is reasonable to think He would surreptitiously intervene only in those cases where the prolonged life of an innocent person might provide further opportunities for them to believe in Jesus. That said, I will apply this premise to your questions below:
If 25 innocent, but hellbound people were about to be killed at the hands of evil terrorists, and if the Open View God could come up with a secret way to prevent that from happening so they would have further opportunity to accept Him, would it not be consistent with God’s character as a loving and merciful God to provide them such opportunity?
She’s only 8 years old. If the Open View God loved her and wanted to give her a chance to believe in Him, why wouldn’t a loving and merciful God intervene? In the case of an evil person taking her life, it would be good triumphing over evil. In the case of being hit by a car or falling down the stairs to her death, there is no evil component. (I hope you realize that it breaks my heart to think of my daughter like this. It gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and puts a lump in my throat. The more I think of it, your post is in horribly bad taste. I won’t be telling my wife about this discussion.)
On the Open View, would such events possibly lead to her salvation? If so, then the Open View God may not intervene in such a case.
If, on the Open View, would such events possibly lead to her salvation, then the Open View God may not intervene in such a case.
If, on the Open View, would such events possibly lead to her salvation, then the Open View God may not intervene in such a case.
It seems to me that Open View gives God a pass. I’m not talking about babysitting every stubbed toe and stolen Tic Tac box. I’m talking about the heinous murder of innocents at the hands of evil men, cutting short the lives of those who might otherwise believe in Jesus. If the Open View God really loves them and wants them to be saved, why doesn’t He do something about it -- secretly -- to prolong their lives and to give them further opportunities to accept Him?
Greeting Jim,
God bless you, your daughter, and the rest of your family! I apologize for having used your daughter in such a way in my post. It was intended to have an emotional impact but not an offensive one. I too have a daughter, two in fact, so I chose my example because I knew that the life and well being of one's daughter is more important to a father than all the thousands who died on 911 put together and so I trust you see the point I was trying to make. Again, no offense was intended and I apologize for being so insensitive.
I am impressed with the honesty with which you addressed my questions given the emotional impact they obviously had.
This I think is a major flaw in your thinking. Prolonged life does provide additional opportunity to believe and be saved but it provides an equal, if not greater, opportunity to do evil and to hate God as well. People are evil by nature and for this one reason alone prolonged life would actually tend to lessen one chances of being saved not improve them. So your supposed motivation for such intervention is discounted. Indeed, it would seem that God would have an incentive not to intervene.
Resting in Him,
Clete
God bless you, your daughter, and the rest of your family! I apologize for having used your daughter in such a way in my post. It was intended to have an emotional impact but not an offensive one. I too have a daughter, two in fact, so I chose my example because I knew that the life and well being of one's daughter is more important to a father than all the thousands who died on 911 put together and so I trust you see the point I was trying to make. Again, no offense was intended and I apologize for being so insensitive.
I am impressed with the honesty with which you addressed my questions given the emotional impact they obviously had.
This I think is a major flaw in your thinking. Prolonged life does provide additional opportunity to believe and be saved but it provides an equal, if not greater, opportunity to do evil and to hate God as well. People are evil by nature and for this one reason alone prolonged life would actually tend to lessen one chances of being saved not improve them. So your supposed motivation for such intervention is discounted. Indeed, it would seem that God would have an incentive not to intervene.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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