ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Berean Todd

Knight, while I'm not sure that I would say every disease is directly given by God

Good. :up:

I disagree with your post but I am glad to hear you do not attribute evil to God as Z Man does.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Berean Todd
As for you, like Knight you still have to respond to all of the verses that Granite posted, which surprise, surprise, none of the Open View, anti-Calvinists here have yet been able to do.

Which post was that?

Spare us the condescending attitude.

I do my best to respond to as many posts as I can.

If I missed one so be it!

Point me to it and I will do my best to respond.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Poly

Why must God make a 2 year old boy die in order to bring about salvation? It's clear that those who believe in predestination believe that God is all powerful. If this be so then God can change wills of men by simply willing them to be changed. He doesn't have to do anything else in order to bring this about. He can change their attitude, thinking, hearts... absolutely anything He wants to change about them. So He could have just changed their thinking to accept Him. But instead of just doing that, He chose to do it by causing a 2 year old to die.

So please answer this question.

Why would a loving God choose to make the little boys death bring them to salvation when He could have easily left the death out of it and just caused their hearts to be changed with just His will to do so?

That is a devestating post and question to this very odd belief system.

Great job Poly. :up:

 

[1Way]

Hilston - Thanks much, looking forward to it. Knight is sort of like our neighborhood friend to many people. He has a great family too, home-schooling bible believing conservatives. I'm glad you two had what sounds like a really good conversation together. Whatever good thing you found in Knight, I hope Knight will share some of it with others and that there is enough to go around. Maybe having occasional phone calls can become a good thing. Knight is a great person to get to know and enjoy, he really cares about us in Christ, and is also a very busy family man too. Sounds like probably you are much the same way, so I patiently await your response.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by 1Way

Hilston - Thanks much, looking forward to it. Knight is sort of like our neighborhood friend to many people. He has a great family too, home-schooling bible believing conservatives. I'm glad you two had what sounds like a really good conversation together. Whatever good thing you found in Knight, I hope Knight will share some of it with others and that there is enough to go around. Maybe having occasional phone calls can become a good thing. Knight is a great person to get to know and enjoy, he really cares about us in Christ, and is also a very busy family man too. Sounds like probably you are much the same way, so I patiently await your response.

I must admit.... I have a new found respect for Jim.

Talking with him on the phone gave me a whole new impression of him and I fear I had wrongly judged him prior to this. I think I sort of judged Jim Hilston as a stubborn "know it all" which couldn't be further from the truth.

For that..... I apologize to Jim and look forward to our next conversation.

 

[Berean Todd]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Knight

Which post was that?

Spare us the condescending attitude.

I do my best to respond to as many posts as I can.

If I missed one so be it!

Point me to it and I will do my best to respond.

Knight, I'm at work so I can't even copy and paste, our PCs internet use is severly restricted, but go look at post number 290 of this very thread. MULTIPLE passages of God doing just what you say He doesn't - directly afflicting people with disease.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Z Man... why not argue against the things I actually say?

One more time....

God doesn't give innocent people diseases for no reason. God doesn't randomly torment people. You will not find that concept in scripture.

:bang: :bang: :bang:

How many times do I have to say it Knight?

I'M NOT TRYING TO PROVE, NOR DO I BELIEVE THAT GOD 'RANDOMLY TORMENTS' PEOPLE OR GIVES 'INNOCENT PEOPLE' DISEASES FOR NO REASONS!!!

I am merely pointing out to you and everyone on this board whom you have lied to that God does indeed inflict people with diseases; that they don't just come out of no where.

WE ARE ALL WAITING KNIGHT. BE A MAN AND RESPOND/ADMIT.



- click here to see Knight caught in a lie!

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by lighthouse

G_I_T-
I have changed my mind before. I'm not a different person. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God does change His mind, God does not change.

If God doesn't change when he changes his mind, then his mind must not be a part of him right?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Poly

Who says you are a different person just because you change your mind? You are still you but changing your mind is a change that takes place within you. God's righteousness will never change. And God changing His mind will never mean that His righteousness will be compromised.

i'm not a different person, it's just that the person i am is not quite the same as it was before. a change that takes place within me is still a change to me is it not? if i get a hip replacement put into my body, it is a change within me. but wouldn't you agree that i have changed at least a little bit as to who i am physically?

by the way, i completely agree that God's righteousness will never change. i was not trying to argue that at all. all i was saying is that since God's mind is a part of him, and that had been changed, then it follows that God had been changed, although this change would be quite small.

 

[Z Man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Poly

Why must God make a 2 year old boy die in order to bring about salvation? It's clear that those who believe in predestination believe that God is all powerful. If this be so then God can change wills of men by simply willing them to be changed. He doesn't have to do anything else in order to bring this about. He can change their attitude, thinking, hearts... absolutely anything He wants to change about them. So He could have just changed their thinking to accept Him. But instead of just doing that, He chose to do it by causing a 2 year old to die.

So please answer this question.

Why would a loving God choose to make the little boys death bring them to salvation when He could have easily left the death out of it and just caused their hearts to be changed with just His will to do so?

Why would God will His Son to die, when all He had to do was wipe out all of mankind?

In all things, God is glorified. That's why He does it the way He chooses to do it. Poly, you've stumbled upon a truth in Scriptures and I believe to be the key to life and our learning experience;

Suffering leads to wisdom and salvation.

God is making a mockery of evil by using it to cause good.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Z Man

Why would God will His Son to die, when all He had to do was wipe out all of mankind?

In all things, God is glorified. That's why He does it the way He chooses to do it. Poly, you've stumbled upon a truth in Scriptures and I believe to be the key to life and our learning experience;

Suffering leads to wisdom and salvation.

God is making a mockery of evil by using it to cause good.

God sent his Son for us out of love. not love for himself, but love for us. remember John 3:16? for God so loved the world.

are you trying to say that God also takes the lives of 2 year olds out of love for the world?

 

[Z Man]

Poly,

What's more important: God's glory, or a boy's life?

 

[Clete]

Knight,

Sorry I've been absent for so long, I was out of town over the holiday weekend. I can't believe how much has been posted since Friday. I have only skimmed most of it so I hoped I didn't overlook anything vitally important.
I did notice the POTD. Thank you!
I also noticed that Freak is history! Thank you again!

Hilston,

In answer to your question, my answer is no, I think (I qualify it like this because it is clearly a loaded question and so my answer depends on what you are desiring to read into my answer).
God has the power and authority to do what He wants to do. Perhaps a better question is why doesn't He intervene in such cases?
The answer to that question has already been given and is reitterated in what follows...

I have a question for you.

If God should intervene in the case of terrorist plots, why shouldn't He intervene at some other point? In other words where should God draw the line? Should He only intervene when thousands of peoples of lives are at stake or are hundreds enough to warrant His intervention, if hundreds are enough, why not 50 or 25? What if it where just your daughter, should God intervene to keep her from being murdered?
What if her life wasn't at stake? What if it was just her innocence? Should God intervene to stop someone from raping her? How about just beating her up or why stop there? What if someone wanted to slap you daughter across the face, should God intervene then? How about if someone was going to steal her car? Is that bad enough? How about if she had a pack of Tic-Tacs? Should God allow someone to successfully pull of a Tic-Tac robbery?
NO?
Why not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

God sent his Son for us out of love. not love for himself, but love for us. remember John 3:16? for God so loved the world.

are you trying to say that God also takes the lives of 2 year olds out of love for the world?

Christ died for the glory of God. Our salvation displays that glory. Sure, we do get the benefit of eternal salvation, but that's just a branch off of the main purpose; the glorification of God and His holiness.

In a way, taking the life of a 2 year old is done by God for His love for the world. Whatever good comes out of it, say, the parents are saved, then that means God gets glory for it. Whenever a person is shown the glory of God, they are given what we all desire. God loving Himself and wanting nothing more than His glory to be displayed IS to love the world, for He is giving us exaclty what we desire:

TO SEE GOD GLORIFIED!

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Z Man

Poly,

What's more important: God's glory, or a boy's life?

This is an unfair question. If I say the boy's life, then of course it would imply that I am somehow exalting the boy above God. But if I say God's glory then it would imply that the boy's life must be taken in order for God to get glory. This shows your unfair debating skills Zman.

By giving these 2 choices you are implying that the only way that God's glory can come about is that God takes the boy's life. Sounds like you are limiting God. I think that God can bring about His glory without having to take somebody's life. I think He's just that powerful, don't you?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Poly,

What's more important: God's glory, or a boy's life?

Stop contradicting yourself Z Man!

According to you, God would be glorified by the boy's death whether it was just or not and He would also be glorified by keeping the boy alive. So this question argues against your own position because you must say to be constant that this is a false dichotomy.

This is why it is unnecessary to respond to most of you arguments. They are either self-contradictory or you will contradict them yourself if given enough time to do so.

I would be fun to watch if it weren't so tragically blasphemous.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Poly

This is an unfair question. If I say the boy's life, then of course it would imply that I am somehow exalting the boy above God. But if I say God's glory then it would imply that the boy's life must be taken in order for God to get glory. This shows your unfair debating skills Zman.

It's exactly the point though. You seem to imply that the boy's life is more important than God. You reject the notion that God would take a boy's life, and if it true, you seem to think it makes God out to be mean or evil. Why? Why hold the boy's life at a higher value than God?

By giving these 2 choices you are implying that the only way that God's glory can come about is that God takes the boy's life. Sounds like you are limiting God. I think that God can bring about His glory without having to take somebody's life. I think He's just that powerful, don't you?

I think God knows what's best in bringing about His glory. For example, if there was another way to bring salvation to the boys parents without taking the boy's life, then of course it would happen that way.

God thought it best to bring about His glory by killing His own Son. What makes you think He would spare a human's life?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man
God thought it best to bring about His glory by killing His own Son. What makes you think He would spare a human's life?

This is outrageous blashpemy!

It absolutely bogles my mind that you could say such a thing!

You have absolutely no concept at all of what justice is do you?

I would like for you to tell us what exactly you think justice is and whether or not you think that God is just and why?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Z Man

Christ died for the glory of God. Our salvation displays that glory. Sure, we do get the benefit of eternal salvation, but that's just a branch off of the main purpose; the glorification of God and His holiness.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

these 2 verses clearly state why God sent Jesus to die. it was because of his love for us. Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates HIS love for US.....Christ died for us". John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that he GAVE his only SON".

scripture says he gave Christ because he loved us not for his own glory.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

This is outrageous blashpemy!

:up: