ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Knight,

TOL is waiting...

Until you answer.... I will simply keep asking.

I asked....

Z Man I have two questions for you.....

1. Z Man is there such a thing as evil?
And if so how do you define it?

2. Has any evil or bad thing ever happened in the history of creation that was not directly orchestrated by God?
And if so, can you give me an example?

 

[Hilston]

Knight -- check your PMs -- hurry!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Hilston

Knight -- check your PMs -- hurry!

:thumb:

 

[1Way]

Hilston - You said to Knight

Calling God "stagnant" in my view is not "doing a fair job." Arguing that my view does not allow God's movement and activity is not "doing a fair job." Saying that my view espouses that all men follow God's will is not "doing a fair job." It's like you're not even trying, Knight.

So for the record, Hilston disagrees with the following characterizations.

1. Calling God "stagnant" in my view is not "doing a fair job."
2. Arguing that my view does not allow God's movement and activity is not "doing a fair job."
3. Saying that my view espouses that all men follow God's will is not "doing a fair job."
   It's like you're not even trying, Knight.

Now we are getting somewhere, I hope. So, you have shaved off some things, but left things very wide open, because frankly, we open viewer's who you are opposing also disagree with those things. So, let's clarify.

1. Does God change in any way?
   
2. Does God respond in this world or is His action changeless from all eternity?
   
3. Do any men not follow God's will?

Lastly, in addition to supplying cogent answers to these questions, please round out your answers to clarify more clearly what you believe, sometimes (often) questions do not cover the entire issue sufficiently, and sometimes we incidentally misunderstand in the first place. So if we are misrepresenting or misunderstanding you, then by all means, explain the correction so we may stand corrected.

In Christ

 

[Lighthouse]

God does not change! Nor is He stagnant! He is involved! He works all things together for the good of those who love Him. He does not will sin to happen. He does not plan sin, but He uses what exists to work His plan. So no matter what, His plan is accomplished. Maybe not by the means He wanted, but by any means necessary.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by lighthouse

God does not change!

Jonah 3
10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

do you believe that God changed his mind here?

if no, then what does "God relented concerning the calamity which he had declared he would bring" mean?

if yes, then why would a change of mind not mean a change in the person as well?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Just got off the phone with Jim Hilston.

What a great guy!

Jim is a loving homeschool dad and a joy to speak with.

Thank you Jim for a great conversation lets do it again soon!

 

[Hilston]

1Way writes:
1. Does God change in any way?

Yes.

1Way writes:
2. Does God respond in this world or is His action changeless from all eternity?

God responds in this world.

1Way writes:3. Do any men not follow God's will?

Most men do not follow God's will (the road is broad that leads to destruction).

1Way writes: Lastly, in addition to supplying cogent answers to these questions, please round out your answers to clarify more clearly what you believe, sometimes (often) questions do not cover the entire issue sufficiently, and sometimes we incidentally misunderstand in the first place. So if we are misrepresenting or misunderstanding you, then by all means, explain the correction so we may stand corrected.

God's will is revealed in scripture. Most men do not follow His will in that regard. However, the decrees of God, that is, the declaration of all that will come to pass, man follows without fail, down to every detail, including sin and evil and every rebellious man that refuses to follow God's revealed will.

Jim

 

[Hilston]

Ditto, Knight. Thanks for taking time from your busy schedule to chat with a stubborn "closed theist."

Blessings my brutha.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Until you answer.... I will simply keep asking.

I asked....

Z Man I have two questions for you.....

1. Z Man is there such a thing as evil?
And if so how do you define it?

2. Has any evil or bad thing ever happened in the history of creation that was not directly orchestrated by God?
And if so, can you give me an example?

Knight,

Lets' get through this one step at a time, shall we? In sticking to the main topic at hand, you started by stating that God does not give people diseases. Do you go against the teachings of Scripture? You seem anxious to skip over all of those posts I have presented for you to go over. You know that in them you must face the reality of a God who does indeed give people diseases, meaning that you were wrong.

I can't believe you will not simply admit that you made a mistake...

 

[1Way]

Hilston - Thanks for the very tight and direct responses. And I am happy you and Knight spoke as you did. You said

God's will is revealed in scripture. Most men do not follow His will in that regard. However, the decrees of God, that is, the declaration of all that will come to pass, man follows without fail, down to every detail, including sin and evil and every rebellious man that refuses to follow God's revealed will.

Please elaborate what this means because I see direct contradiction between "God's will" and "God's decree", so I must not be understanding properly. What is the difference between these two, and why? Also, what bible passages lend to the decree part?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Knight

Just got off the phone with Jim Hilston.

What a great guy!

Jim is a loving homeschool dad and a joy to speak with.

Thank you Jim for a great conversation lets do it again soon!

awesome! :up:

 

[Berean Todd]

Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Knight

Z Man... are you making the point that EVERY sickness is a punishment of God?

When a two year old boy dies of Leukemia is he being punished by God?

What did he do?

Knight, while I'm not sure that I would say every disease is directly given by God, absolutely there could be cases where that 2 year old boy died because of God's will. What is life on earth? What value is it? It is but a drop in the bucket of eternity.

That boys death does not have to be a punishment, look at the passage where Jesus said that the man's disease was not for his sins or his parents sins, but that the Son of Man might be glorified.

Maybe the 2 year old boy's death you mentioned helped to bring 3 relatives to salvation. Maybe it brings the father and mother together closer. Maybe all sorts of good comes out of it. I know that I now look back on what were very painful experiences in my life, things I thought no good could come from, and I see all sorts of good that came from them. God IS sovereign, and as the Word tells us, all things work together for good to those who are called by His name.

 

[Poly]

Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Berean Todd


Maybe the 2 year old boy's death you mentioned helped to bring 3 relatives to salvation. Maybe it brings the father and mother together closer. Maybe all sorts of good comes out of it. I know that I now look back on what were very painful experiences in my life, things I thought no good could come from, and I see all sorts of good that came from them. God IS sovereign, and as the Word tells us, all things work together for good to those who are called by His name.

Why must God make a 2 year old boy die in order to bring about salvation? It's clear that those who believe in predestination believe that God is all powerful. If this be so then God can change wills of men by simply willing them to be changed. He doesn't have to do anything else in order to bring this about. He can change their attitude, thinking, hearts... absolutely anything He wants to change about them. So He could have just changed their thinking to accept Him. But instead of just doing that, He chose to do it by causing a 2 year old to die.

So please answer this question.

Why would a loving God choose to make the little boys death bring them to salvation when He could have easily left the death out of it and just caused their hearts to be changed with just His will to do so?

 

[Hilston]

Difference between the two ...

Difference between the two ...

1Way writes:
Please elaborate what this means because I see direct contradiction between "God's will" and "God's decree", so I must not be understanding properly. What is the difference between these two, and why? Also, what bible passages lend to the decree part?

As a result of my excellent discussion with Knight, I want to give a more careful and thought-out scripture-based definition of each. Can't do it right now, but I should be able to respond soon.

Jim

 

[Berean Todd]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Avoiding TRUTH....

Originally posted by Poly
Why would a loving God choose to make the little boys death bring them to salvation when He could have easily left the death out of it and just caused their hearts to be changed with just His will to do so?

I'm not a full Calvinist, so I don't believe that He would do that, because that violates free will. I don't believe in completely libertarian free will (as most non calvinists would subscribe to), but I do believe in free will.

If you want a comparison for my beliefs think Robert Lightner, Charles Hodge (not on all issues but on divine sovereignty and free will), and to a certain extent Charles Ryrie. I'm a "light Calvinist," about a 3.5 to 4 pointer if you will. I believe that full Calvinists go much too far, but that non-Calvinists have to either deny the innerancy of scripture or to stretch things beyond reasonably possible on too many passages about Divine sovereignty and design of events, and interactions with people.

As for you, like Knight you still have to respond to all of the verses that Granite posted, which surprise, surprise, none of the Open View, anti-Calvinists here have yet been able to do.

 

[Lighthouse]

G_I_T-
I have changed my mind before. I'm not a different person. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God does change His mind, God does not change.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Here we go again, someone arguing about "stagnant" which someone unfortunately used in a scripture discussion context.

WILL YOU PEOPLE please STOP GIVING TIME TO UNSCRIPTURAL PHRASES???????????????????????????????

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by lighthouse

G_I_T-
I have changed my mind before. I'm not a different person. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God does change His mind, God does not change.

Who says you are a different person just because you change your mind? You are still you but changing your mind is a change that takes place within you. God's righteousness will never change. And God changing His mind will never mean that His righteousness will be compromised.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Knight,

Lets' get through this one step at a time, shall we? In sticking to the main topic at hand, you started by stating that God does not give people diseases. Do you go against the teachings of Scripture?

Z Man... why not argue against the things I actually say?

One more time....

God doesn't give innocent people diseases for no reason. God doesn't randomly torment people. You will not find that concept in scripture.

Z Man I have two questions for you.....

1. Z Man is there such a thing as evil?
And if so how do you define it?

2. Has any evil or bad thing ever happened in the history of creation that was not directly orchestrated by God?
And if so, can you give me an example?