ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Poly]

I am using the biblical definitions for a liar and a fraud, which is appropriate. I believe she is being deceitful because she has been repeatedly given the evidence that she questions exists, and so she knows that it is there and yet chooses to ignore it and claim otherwise. She doesn't take them seriously.

"You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord ?"

Could you please tell me where this verse is found?

 

[Benjamin]

Could you please tell me where this verse is found?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 13:10;&version=49;

www.google.com

 

[Clete]

A couple of posts ago, I established the first one (Christ's identity). I will address the other's as time permits. They are all connected to believing on Jesus, yes.

I am not asking you to establish each of those Biblical doctrines, Sozo. I'm asking you to establish that one cannot be saved apart from understanding all those Biblical doctrines. Establish for me that one must understand their identity in Christ in order to be saved, for example.

I believe she is being deceitful because she has been repeatedly given the evidence that she questions exists, and so she knows that it is there and yet chooses to ignore it and claim otherwise. She doesn't take them seriously.

How certain are you that it isn't you that she isn't taking seriously?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Poly]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013:10;&version=49;

www.google.com

Thank you.

I am using the biblical definitions for a liar and a fraud, which is appropriate. I believe she is being deceitful because she has been repeatedly given the evidence that she questions exists, and so she knows that it is there and yet chooses to ignore it and claim otherwise. She doesn't take them seriously.

"You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord ?"

Acts 13:6-10
Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

You're really going to compare mercyschild with a sorcerer who was purposely seeking to turn people away from the faith? This isn't even going to an extreme. It's simply wrong to do.

 

[Newman]

thats just Sozo's style... I've already learned to ignore all of that unnecessary name-calling and condemnation

 

[Sozo]

You're really going to compare mercyschild with a sorcerer who was purposely seeking to turn people away from the faith? This isn't even going to an extreme. It's simply wrong to do.

If she has been told the truth, and she maintains her view to do otherwise, then it is on purpose. It really doesn't matter that that she is not a sorcerer, proclaiming righteousness through works is wrong, no matter who says it.

Would it be better for all involved if I were to simply say...

"mercychild, what you are telling people is not honest, and since you have been given verses that go directly against what you claim, and since you have read them, you are purposely choosing to deceive others to believe a lie, and that's wrong."

 

[kmoney]

I never said that.

The bible does. So why do you think it says that?

 

[Sozo]

I am not asking you to establish each of those Biblical doctrines, Sozo. I'm asking you to establish that one cannot be saved apart from understanding all those Biblical doctrines. Establish for me that one must understand their identity in Christ in order to be saved, for example.

Okay... be patient, and I will.

How certain are you that it isn't you that she isn't taking seriously?

Why does that matter?

 

[kmoney]

Has anyone ever heard of intellectual legalism?? :think:

 

[kmoney]

I am not asking you to establish each of those Biblical doctrines, Sozo. I'm asking you to establish that one cannot be saved apart from understanding all those Biblical doctrines. Establish for me that one must understand their identity in Christ in order to be saved, for example.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I don't think you can. I think the most Paul ever said was this:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Sozo]

I don't think you can. I think the most Paul ever said was this:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There is more there than you understand, apparently. Read what I said about the identity of Jesus, for starters.

 

[kmoney]

There is more there than you understand, apparently. Read what I said about the identity of Jesus, for starters.

You may be able to add some stuff about Jesus. For example, for him to be raised again he must have been in the flesh. But your list covers a lot more than I see in those verses. You complicate the gospel.

 

[Sozo]

You may be able to add some stuff about Jesus. For example, for him to be raised again he must have been in the flesh. But your list covers a lot more than I see in those verses. You complicate the gospel.

That's ridiculous. In fact, it is those who add to Christ, and His finished work by claiming that believers must do something to be saved, that "complicate" the gospel. The gospel is very uncomplicated, but what you accept as truth is essential to salvation.

Do you think that it is unimportant that you know that you are a sinner, before you come to Christ?

Paul says a great deal about who we are, who Jesus is, and what he has done, before he ever states that we are to believe in Him.

In the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed. That's important.

 

[mercyschild]

If she has been told the truth, and she maintains her view to do otherwise, then it is on purpose. It really doesn't matter that that she is not a sorcerer, proclaiming righteousness through works is wrong, no matter who says it.

Would it be better for all involved if I were to simply say...

"mercychild, what you are telling people is not honest, and since you have been given verses that go directly against what you claim, and since you have read them, you are purposely choosing to deceive others to believe a lie, and that's wrong."

So I wonder why James then, said "Faith without works is dead?????" Actually, he devoted almost an entire chapter devoted specifically to this...James must not have been a devout Christian either, by some people's standards...

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Or how about Paul, when he says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and that we are designed to DO God's good works?? (Philippians 2:12), (Ephesians 2:10), (Colassions 3:23), (I Thessalonians 1:2-4),
Even Jesus himself, wanted faithful workers...(Matthew 9: 36-38), (Matthew 20:3-5), (Luke 5:4-6)

 

[Clete]

Okay... be patient, and I will.

Okay. I can't hardly wait to see how you are going to establish that one must understand the whole of the Christian faith in order to be saved. That's going to be a good one.

Why does that matter?

Because not taking you seriously isn't what you are accusing her of. You're accusing her of not taking the Bible seriously and what she isn't taking seriously is your false accusations and name calling. They aren't the same thing Sozo! She doesn't suddenly stop being a being saved because Sozo says so. And while I'm quite sure that you're convinced that you know what it takes to be saved, I wonder why it is that you are so quick to condemn someone while taking 3 or 4 days to simply state plainly what one must do to be saved. Paul answered the question in a single sentence for crying out loud! Do you really mean to tell me that the jailer understood doctrine that Paul wouldn't write down for several years? I mean if that's what you're saying then fine, but I would really be interested in an explanation as to how that could be and I think that Mercyschild deserves such an explanation as well.

I know! Be patient! Okay, okay! I'll be patient and I'll try my best to reserve judgment until you've had a chance to present your case.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Sozo]

Ultimately it comes down to understanding in our heart that God is right, and we are not, and that we need to be made right by Him, and not because we do right.

All of those things I listed are incorporated into the simplicity of this gospel message.

Here is a way that I posted it in the past...

All men can understand that God is right and we are not, and that we need to be right.

All men can understand that being right is only possible as a gift from God, and that no man can be right by doing right.

All men can understand that receiving the gift of being right can only come if we believe that God sent His Son to pay for our wrongs, and accepting His payment allows us to receive the gift of being right.

All men can understand that any attempt on our part to be right by doing right excludes them from the gift.

All men in any culture or age can understand the simplicity of the gospel.

 

[Sozo]

I wonder why it is that you are so quick to condemn someone while taking 3 or 4 days to simply state plainly what one must do to be saved.

3 to 4 days?

Now you're the liar.

You'll get nothing else from me, unless you read it being posted to someone else.

Good riddance, butthead.

 

[Clete]

So I wonder why James then, said "Faith without works is dead?????" Actually, he devoted almost an entire chapter devoted specifically to this...James must not have been a devout Christian either, by some people's standards...

James said this because his audience was under the law. Paul says the exact opposite to an audience which is not under the law in Romans 4:5.

But that's a topic for another thread.

Or how about Paul, when he says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and that we are designed to DO God's good works?? (Philippians 2:12), (Ephesians 2:10), (Colassions 3:23), (I Thessalonians 1:2-4),
Even Jesus himself, wanted faithful workers...(Matthew 9: 36-38), (Matthew 20:3-5), (Luke 5:4-6)

The phrase "work out our salvation" is a figure of speech. It does not mean that we are to earn our salvation by works but that we are to study and to figure out the truths in Scripture and to understand the fullness of the gospel. A task impossible for an unsaved person to accomplish, by the way.

And of course we are to do good works! Paul tells us over and over again to do rightly! But the point is that we do not do so out of fear but out of love. We do good works because those works flow out of who we are in Christ. And the more we are conformed by God into the image of His Son the more good works will be evident in our lives. But once again, as Romans 4:5 explicitly states, he who DOES NOT WORK but believe God, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Thus good works and devotion to God may be found in the life of a Christian but not always in proper measure but when we are faithless He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). This is the gospel according to Paul.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[mercyschild]

James said this because his audience was under the law. Paul says the exact opposite to an audience which is not under the law in Romans 4:5.

But that's a topic for another thread.


The phrase "work out our salvation" is a figure of speech. It does not mean that we are to earn our salvation by works but that we are to study and to figure out the truths in Scripture and to understand the fullness of the gospel. A task impossible for an unsaved person to accomplish, by the way.

And of course we are to do good works! Paul tells us over and over again to do rightly! But the point is that we do not do so out of fear but out of love. We do good works because those works flow out of who we are in Christ. And the more we are conformed by God into the image of His Son the more good works will be evident in our lives. But once again, as Romans 4:5 explicitly states, he who DOES NOT WORK but believe God, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Thus good works and devotion to God may be found in the life of a Christian but not always in proper measure but when we are faithless He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). This is the gospel according to Paul.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Thank you; I understand that we don't actually 'work out our salvation', because once we are saved, we are saved; but there are things that God has already appointed us to do, like Love him, and love others, that we are to do more thoroughly once we are saved, simply because we KNOW who God is, and we are to share that gift of grace with others. Once our identity is in Christ, we do 'work' out our faith by living for God and not ourselves; when we turn away, he is still there, and when we come back he is still there; like any relationship it's hard 'work', because God knows every aspect of us...

 

[Sozo]

I wonder why it is that you are so quick to condemn someone while taking 3 or 4 days to simply state plainly what one must do to be saved. Paul answered the question in a single sentence for crying out loud!

This statement of yours is absolutely the height of ignorance!

Paul knew immediately when someone was preaching another gospel, and opposed them publically, and immediately.

You have no idea what people knew about Jesus before they believed on Him.

If you walk into a village in the middle of a jungle and just say "Believe in Jesus and you'll be saved" after looking at you like you're was nuts, they might say, who is this Jesus and why should we believe in Him. "Well my name is Clete, and that's all you need to know!"

What's really going on here has nothing to do with me, and what the gospel is, it has something to do with who mercyschild is, and some sort of personal respect she has acquired. To defend her, by people who claim to know Christ, is a travesty to her and to the gospel.

You're pathetic, and should be ashamed of yourself.