ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[elected4ever]

And who gives you the right to say whether someone is saved or not? You ARE not God...

You just said that you weren't saved. That gives all God's children the right to say you are not saved. You said, "We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it-who hopes for what he already has? Our earthly bodies must still die; these are temporary vessels, not the eternal ones..."
1 John 4:17 ¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[Sozo]

And who gives you the right to say whether someone is saved or not? You ARE not God...

You're own words condemn you.

 

[Clete]

Sozo,

What must Mercychild do to be saved?

Be as specific as possible if you don't mind. And I promise that this is not a trick question, I just want to know how you would answer it.

 

[mercyschild]

You just said that you weren't saved. That gives all God's children the right to say you are not saved. You said, "We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it-who hopes for what he already has? Our earthly bodies must still die; these are temporary vessels, not the eternal ones..."
1 John 4:17 ¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

I did not say I was not saved, I quoted scripture (Romans 8:25)-we are not yet eternal in the fullest sense; if we were already 'eternal' then why the need for our earthly bodies to die? We are not yet fully eternal; we are living to reach eternity (we are in the 'already, but not yet) we are living for it, but we have not yet achieved it in it's entirety.

 

[Sozo]

I did not say I was not saved, I quoted scripture (Romans 8:25)-we are not yet eternal in the fullest sense; if we were already 'eternal' then why the need for our earthly bodies to die? We are not yet fully eternal; we are living to reach eternity (we are in the 'already, but not yet) we are living for it, but we have not yet achieved it in it's entirety.

You really need to study the whole counsel of God...

"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" …1 John 5:11


"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" …1 John 5:12


"It is the Spirit who gives life " …John 6:63

"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"
…John 7:39


"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." …Romans 8:9

"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" …1 Corinthians 3:16

"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own" …1 Corinthians 6:19

"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." …2 Corinthians 3:6

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" …Ephesians 1:13

"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." …1 John 3:24

"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." …1 John 4:13

 

[elected4ever]

I did not say I was not saved, I quoted scripture (Romans 8:25)-we are not yet eternal in the fullest sense; if we were already 'eternal' then why the need for our earthly bodies to die? We are not yet fully eternal; we are living to reach eternity (we are in the 'already, but not yet) we are living for it, but we have not yet achieved it in it's entirety.

How silly you are. What makes you think that you acheive anything?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Newman]

Before I respond more fully, let me ask this....Why do you think that people who fulfill the lusts of the flesh don't inherit the kingdom of God?

I never said that.

 

[Sozo]

Sozo,

What must Mercychild do to be saved?

Be as specific as possible if you don't mind. And I promise that this is not a trick question, I just want to know how you would answer it.

I don't have time tonight, to break all of this down. (If she was truly interested, I'd take the time).


These are the essentials...

Identity of Jesus
Sin
Grace
Faith
Life
Identity of the believer
Propitiation
Justification
Sanctification
Righteousness

 

[mercyschild]

How silly you are. What makes you think that you acheive anything?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So what do YOU do with the commandments "Love God, and Love your neighbor as yourself"? What about spiritual gifts? Sure we can do nothing to 'achieve' our salvation, as Christ has already done that, but we continually LIVE OUT our salvation in our daily lives. "Therefore my brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know your work is not in vain."

 

[Poly]

I don't have time tonight, to break all of this down. (If she was truly interested, I'd take the time).


These are the essentials...

Identity of Jesus
Sin
Grace
Faith
Life
Identity of the believer
Propitiation
Justification
Sanctification
Righteousness

I realize you said you don't have time to break this down but could you at least explain just a little more? Is this a list to be followed? Are these some kind of steps to be taken in order? Is this just the process that takes place kind of "behind the scenes" when one believes? This is really pretty vague to throw such a list out there. Does it really take that long to state what a non-believer must do in order to be saved?

 

[Sozo]

mercyschild... You have ignored every post that proves you to be a liar and a fraud.

No matter what anyone says to you, and reveals to you from the bible, you persist to preach your false gospel of self-righteousness.

You need to repent, and come to Christ by faiith, and be done with your self.

 

[Sozo]

I realize you said you don't have time to break this down but could you at least explain just a little more? Is this a list to be followed? Are these some kind of steps to be taken in order? Is this just the process that takes place kind of "behind the scenes" when one believes? This is really pretty vague to throw such a list out there. Does it really take that long to state what a non-believer must do in order to be saved?

I'll give you one tonight, and then I am going to bed.

It is not enough to just say the name of Jesus to be saved. Cults use His name. Faith must be in the One and Only true Jesus.

To call upon the name of the Lord, you must know who that Lord is. If you do not believe that He is God in the flesh, then you have another Jesus. If you do not believe that he was born of a virgin, then you have another Jesus... and so on.

Identifying who Jesus is, is an essential to being saved.

 

[Poly]

mercyschild... You have ignored every post that proves you to be a liar and a fraud.

A liar and a fraud? If she's wrong about her beliefs over salvation and even if being wrong unfortunately has resulted in her not really being saved (which I don't believe is the case), she's not a fraud.

If one genuinely believes something to be true they can be so wrong it hurts but they're not being deceitful, claiming that something is true, all the while knowing that what they are claiming to be true is indeed false.

When you go to extremes and call people such things when they don't apply, you make the meaning of certain words weak. It's important that those who really are frauds and liars be the only ones who are called frauds and liars. You can't take advantage of the sharp meanings of these words, labeling people with them who don't really deserve it in an attempt to "stick it to them" because they aren't seeing what you want them to see or believing what it is you are trying to get them to believe.

 

[elected4ever]

So what do YOU do with the commandments "Love God, and Love your neighbor as yourself"? What about spiritual gifts? Sure we can do nothing to 'achieve' our salvation, as Christ has already done that, but we continually LIVE OUT our salvation in our daily lives. "Therefore my brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know your work is not in vain."

I don't do anything with them. What am I supposed to do manufacture something to make me feel like I saved? Am I supposed to have a guilt trip because I don't do like Tom, dick or Harry down the street? I live my life in faith expecting God to use me in some fashion as He will.

 

[mercyschild]

I don't do anything with them. What am I supposed to do manufacture something to make me feel like I saved? Am I supposed to have a guilt trip because I don't do like Tom, dick or Harry down the street? I live my life in faith expecting God to use me in some fashion as He will.

I am not guilting you, but it's not about your salvation, it's about the committment you have given to share the grace that has been given to you.

 

[elected4ever]

I am not guilting you, but it's not about your salvation, it's about the committment you have given to share the grace that has been given to you.

I sow and God gives the increase. What more could I ask?

 

[Clete]

I don't have time tonight, to break all of this down. (If she was truly interested, I'd take the time).


These are the essentials...

Identity of Jesus
Sin
Grace
Faith
Life
Identity of the believer
Propitiation
Justification
Sanctification
Righteousness

Are you seriously suggesting that a person needs to understand all of that in order to be saved?

Can you establish that Biblically?

 

[Sozo]

Are you seriously suggesting that a person needs to understand all of that in order to be saved?

Can you establish that Biblically?

A couple of posts ago, I established the first one (Christ's identity). I will address the other's as time permits. They are all connected to believing on Jesus, yes.

 

[Sozo]

A liar and a fraud? If she's wrong about her beliefs over salvation and even if being wrong unfortunately has resulted in her not really being saved (which I don't believe is the case), she's not a fraud.

If one genuinely believes something to be true they can be so wrong it hurts but they're not being deceitful, claiming that something is true, all the while knowing that what they are claiming to be true is indeed false.

When you go to extremes and call people such things when they don't apply, you make the meaning of certain words weak. It's important that those who really are frauds and liars be the only ones who are called frauds and liars. You can't take advantage of the sharp meanings of these words, labeling people with them who don't really deserve it in an attempt to "stick it to them" because they aren't seeing what you want them to see or believing what it is you are trying to get them to believe.

I am using the biblical definitions for a liar and a fraud, which is appropriate. I believe she is being deceitful because she has been repeatedly given the evidence that she questions exists, and so she knows that it is there and yet chooses to ignore it and claim otherwise. She doesn't take them seriously.

"You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord ?"

 

[Lighthouse]

This is a great topic and a great truth to teach: Our Identity in Christ. This is a positional truth. Others in this thread have done a great job showing this truth through scripture already so I won't bother with a lengthy post; however, I did want to add a few coments.

In my opinion, the Bible very plainly shows through the Episltles of Paul that Christians are to place their identity in Christ and not sin. If we truly realize that Christ crucified sin upon the cross and we now recognize that we have the Mind of Christ, we are truly free indeed. That's right...we are free from sin!

Christians who do not realize this truth and who continue to sin thinking that they are still subject to sin will effectually crucify Christ over and over and over again. This is wrong. Most Christians have an attitude of "doing" instead of "being". That is most Christians feel that they must do certain things to achieve Christ-likeness. The fact of the matter is that we are already Christ-like. We have the Mind of Christ. All we have to do is allow Christ to work in us and we will bear righteous fruit!

Believing that Christians can and do still sin is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a Christian identifies themselves with sin, they will sin. It's pretty simple really. Identifying with sin will allow the flesh to continue sinning.

Now, it is my observation that most Christians, the ones who place a lot of importance and emphasis on free will (Open Viewers), will never get this important truth or they will be intellectually dishonest about it. This is so because believing in this biblical truth shows the truth of depravity. The old man dying shows that we were indeed born children of wrath. This is why the majority of Open Viewers will never concede the truth of our Identity in Christ. It will hurt their bogus theology of Openness. At any rate, that's my opinion.

Again, this is a great subject to talk about! Great job, Sozo! :thumb:

Roland

Sozo and I both believe the future is open.