ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Sozo]

I have read Romans 8 several times; and no where within that context does it say we are made perfect; sorry, but mine is talking about the comparison between the Old and New covanents. It is talking alot about 'future tense' as there are alot of "I Will" statements within it. The writer is not talking about our earthly perfection, but Christ's perfect ministry.

Chapter 10 is a better example of what you are trying to get at, however, even within that context there is no mention that we as humanity are 'made perfect' in every way, it's simply addressing that there will be no further need for sacrifice for sins.

You're not very bright, are you?

Is it possible for you to stay on track in a conversation?

You said...

I agree with you that there is no such thing as a 'license' to sin, however I think you are missing a huge part of what humanity is; christian or not; and that is fallen. Even once we claim God's grace we are still a part of this fallen imperfect world.

Romans 1-8, although it is talking about the new life, is not by any means saying that once we are Christian we will be perfect, as it seems you are taking it to mean. True perfection will come after we are done with this earthly life; we strive for perfection here, through the way we live, but we will not attain it here-ever. No, we will never be good enough for salvation, but Christ's blood has taken that 'need' away. We are good enough for God, now, simply because his son died for us, all we have to do is accept it, and stop trying to live for ourselves.

In which I replied...

So there is a condition? If you don't stop, what happens?

The bible clearly states that a believer has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7-10)

A believer is holy, righteous, complete, and perfect. If not, then the sacrifice and resurrection were worthless

Do you understand why I asked you those questions?

You stated that it requires more than accepting Jesus. You also stated that we must

stop trying to live for ourselves

. You have put a condition on salvation. That is another gospel.

Secondly... I responded to your false belief that a believer is not perfect and suggested that you find the answer by reading Hebrews chapters 7-10.

That is where the bible addressess that Christians are "perfect forever". If you are not aware of the book of Hebrews, then I will take the time on another thread to discuss it with you.

Then you came back with another comment and ignored my questions, and also ignored Hebrews 7-10 which, if you had read, you would not have said...

If we were 'truly perfect' right at accepting God's grace, we wouldn't be stuck in this same old shamefully sinful world now would we?

In which I replied...

Yes, and we are. Have you ever read Romans 8? If so, maybe you should read it again. Like right now.

Do you know anything about the gospel?

Do you know what it means to be "born of God"?

Do you know what it means when Paul said that he died with Christ, and it is no longer he who lives, but Christ?

btw... The bible says we are made perfect. If you don't like what the bible says, then take it up with God.

Yes, mercyschild, we are perfect, and we are stuck in this shamefully sinful world.

Then I brought up the point about Romans 8, because it speaks to your question about being in this "shamefully sinful world".

I had already addressed your question about being perfect, so I was not implying that Romans 8 teaches specifically about being perfect.

Try following along, or I will not answer your questions at all.

Here is what Romans teaches about our condition of being in Christ, and having to live on in this world...

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

Here is a bonus, because I really don't want you to come back with one of your uninformed comments...

"Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."

 

[mercyschild]

You're not very bright, are you?

Is it possible for you to stay on track in a conversation?

You said...




In which I replied...



Do you understand why I asked you those questions?

You stated that it requires more than accepting Jesus. You also stated that we must . You have put a condition on salvation. That is another gospel.

Secondly... I responded to your false belief that a believer is not perfect and suggested that you find the answer by reading Hebrews chapters 7-10.

That is where the bible addressess that Christians are "perfect forever". If you are not aware of the book of Hebrews, then I will take the time on another thread to discuss it with you.

Then you came back with another comment and ignored my questions, and also ignored Hebrews 7-10 which, if you had read, you would not have said...



In which I replied...



Yes, mercyschild, we are perfect, and we are stuck in this shamefully sinful world.

Then I brought up the point about Romans 8, because it speaks to your question about being in this "shamefully sinful world".

I had already addressed your question about being perfect, so I was not implying that Romans 8 teaches specifically about being perfect.

Try following along, or I will not answer your questions at all.

Here is what Romans teaches about our condition of being in Christ, and having to live on in this world...

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

Here is a bonus, because I really don't want you to come back with one of your uninformed comments...

"Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."

So the fact that Christ himself gave the command to "take up your cross and follow me" means nothing to you huh? Or how about Paul saying that we have to "die daily to ourselves"?

Or how about these..."For in this hope wer were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not have, we wait for it patiently." Looks like we are still waiting, and living for something...obviously not eternal perfection in your eyes... "Therefore do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. THEN you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing, and perfect will." Hmmm...looks like we have work to do. "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial-Everything is permissible, but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others" Again, looks like we have work to do, and choices to make about how we live out our Christlikeness; and an implication that we may mess up, given we have such freedom.

Hmmmm...Yes, we are saved, but eternal glory (perfection is not here)...we can never match God in perfection while still 'trapped' in these earthly bodies which wrestle with worldly things; yes, we have the power to resist temptation, and we know right from wrong, but perfection is not yet complete; we are not yet back in the garden we were created for.

And those verses (aside from the first one), from the studies I have done and lectures I have heard on them, are talking about the future glory awaits, not the present...read the context around the verses you use; don't distort scripture to make it mean what YOU want it to mean...

 

[Sozo]

So you don't agree with the book of Hebrews?

Okay, that's your choice.

Just so you know, you have no idea what the gospel is.

If you'd like to find out, start another thread, and I'll answer your questions about our responsibilities in thise life while we await the redemption of our bodies.

 

[elected4ever]

What really what gets to me is that most Christian's faith requires them to sin. Faith is what you hold to be true and are willing to bet your life on and most Christians bet there life on their ability to sin. No Apostle or Jesus has ever taught such a doctrine. If it were not for the belief (faith) in their ability to sin then the whole of there theology would come apart. The bottom line in all such doctrine is ether one of two things. The first is to be accepted by a lost and dying world full of lost and dieing people or just plain unbelief. To them it is just not "reasonable" to believe that Jesus has done what He said he did. Now that might stick in the craw of a lot of people who call themselves christian and find every reason humanly possible to hang on to sin. Sin is death why does anyone wont to hang onto death when life is there free for the asking.

 

[kmoney]

I think that it could satisfy both you and Sozo. It says that all Christians actually do have a license to sin, but because all Christians are in the Spirit, they won't just go around whatever they want to do.

The freedom Paul mentions in verse 13 isn't freedom to sin; it is freedom from the yoke of slavery, which is the Law. No one is justified by the Law, but people who fulfill the lusts of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. Christ did not provide a license to sin when he sacrificed himself.

 

[kmoney]

What really what gets to me is that most Christian's faith requires them to sin. Faith is what you hold to be true and are willing to bet your life on and most Christians bet there life on their ability to sin. No Apostle or Jesus has ever taught such a doctrine. If it were not for the belief (faith) in their ability to sin then the whole of there theology would come apart. The bottom line in all such doctrine is ether one of two things. The first is to be accepted by a lost and dying world full of lost and dieing people or just plain unbelief. To them it is just not "reasonable" to believe that Jesus has done what He said he did. Now that might stick in the craw of a lot of people who call themselves christian and find every reason humanly possible to hang on to sin. Sin is death why does anyone wont to hang onto death when life is there free for the asking.

:squint: What are you talking about? Their faith requires them to sin?

 

[elected4ever]

:squint: What are you talking about? Their faith requires them to sin?

Do not most Christians believe that they continue in sin? What is faith if it is not the content of one's belief? There faith requires that they sin so how are they not to sin if it is there belief or faith that they do?

 

[Newman]

The freedom Paul mentions in verse 13 isn't freedom to sin; it is freedom from the yoke of slavery, which is the Law. No one is justified by the Law, but people who fulfill the lusts of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. Christ did not provide a license to sin when he sacrificed himself.

We are free from the law -> the law does not apply to us -> breaking the law = sin -> license to sin

at least that's how i see it

Christ did provide a license to sin... that wasn't the reason he died, (oh, of course not). He died to take away our sin (out of love).

Just because we have a license to sin doesn't mean that we are going to become a Christian just so we can use it. That would negate the fact of being a Christian!

Galatians 5:13-18 (TNIV)
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

See? We won't use this "freedom" in order to sin. If we "walk by the spirit" then we won't "gratify the desires of the sinful nature." The spirit and our sinful nature living in the same person creates a "conflict". The law does not apply to us (license to sin), but we won't use our Christian faith for that license to sin.

 

[elected4ever]

We are free from the law -> the law does not apply to us -> breaking the law = sin -> license to sin

at least that's how i see it

Christ did provide a license to sin... that wasn't the reason he died, (oh, of course not). He died to take away our sin (out of love).

Just because we have a license to sin doesn't mean that we are going to become a Christian just so we can use it. That would negate the fact of being a Christian!

Galatians 5:13-18 (TNIV)
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

See? We won't use this "freedom" in order to sin. If we "walk by the spirit" then we won't "gratify the desires of the sinful nature." The spirit and our sinful nature living in the same person creates a "conflict". The law does not apply to us (license to sin), but we won't use our Christian faith for that license to sin.

The law does not apply to anyone and hasn't for the last 2000 years or so. The law is fulfilled and the administration of the law is complete. The law does not exist. It is dead. What standard is to be applied to convict of sin? There isn't one. There is no licenses to do what does not exist.

What is it that sends a person to hell? It is not the violation of the law. It is the deadness in which we were born in the flesh. If you do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead in victory over death than you will go to hell. If you believe that you still sin then you do not believe in the resurrection. You just believe a form of the gospel but you deny the power of the gospel.

 

[Damian]

Thanks Knight! I'll be back after dinner. I really appreciate your willingness to gently discuss this.

LOL.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Now, it is my observation that most Christians, the ones who place a lot of importance and emphasis on free will (Open Viewers), will never get this important truth or they will be intellectually dishonest about it. This is so because believing in this biblical truth shows the truth of depravity. The old man dying shows that we were indeed born children of wrath. This is why the majority of Open Viewers will never concede the truth of our Identity in Christ. It will hurt their bogus theology of Openness. At any rate, that's my opinion.

Hey retard, this thread doesn't have a thing to do with Calvinism. Furthermore neither Sozo, nor e4e nor Lighthouse are Calvinists.

Oh, and Roland?

 

[kmoney]

Do not most Christians believe that they continue in sin?

Yes.

What is faith if it is not the content of one's belief?

I believe Christians can still sin, but I don't know if I'd say my faith is in that. :idunno:

There faith requires that they sin so how are they not to sin if it is there belief or faith that they do?

That question might mean something if you thought Christians' actions actually change instead of just renaming their actions or saying the person isn't actually doing it, rather their Flesh is.

 

[kmoney]

We are free from the law -> the law does not apply to us -> breaking the law = sin -> license to sin

at least that's how i see it

Christ did provide a license to sin... that wasn't the reason he died, (oh, of course not). He died to take away our sin (out of love).

Just because we have a license to sin doesn't mean that we are going to become a Christian just so we can use it. That would negate the fact of being a Christian!

Galatians 5:13-18 (TNIV)
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

See? We won't use this "freedom" in order to sin. If we "walk by the spirit" then we won't "gratify the desires of the sinful nature." The spirit and our sinful nature living in the same person creates a "conflict". The law does not apply to us (license to sin), but we won't use our Christian faith for that license to sin.

Before I respond more fully, let me ask this....Why do you think that people who fulfill the lusts of the flesh don't inherit the kingdom of God?

 

[mercyschild]

So you don't agree with the book of Hebrews?

Okay, that's your choice.

Just so you know, you have no idea what the gospel is.

If you'd like to find out, start another thread, and I'll answer your questions about our responsibilities in thise life while we await the redemption of our bodies.

So, tell me, all of you who believe we are totally perfect at salvation...

Have you ever...
Called in sick, just because you wanted a day off?
Made a promise to someone and made up a lame excuse to not keep that promise, even though you could have?
Spoken out of anger?
Acted out of rage?
Disciplined a child out of anger?
Mistreated any part of creation, just for your own pleasure?
Gossiped about the 'strange people down the street'?
Held onto bitterness about something or someone?
Told a 'little white lie' just to keep someone happy with you?
Hung out with the 'wrong crowd' just to look cool, but had no intentions of sharing your faith with them?
Stolen anything from anyone; whether that was time, goods, or any thing else?
Participated in activities you knew were not a good influence on your faith?
Turned away from someone you knew was in need of your help?
Swore at someone...or otherwise cursed?
Walked away from an opportunity to minister to someone, when you know you could have stayed?

Now, this is just a tiny list of those 'everyday' things that we may do, that make us imperfect, even in our salvation. :bang:

Enough said; I don't want to continue arguing about a point; I am just going to 'agree, that we disagree'... :thumb:

 

[kmoney]

So, tell me, all of you who believe we are totally perfect at salvation...

I think you misunderstand Sozo's side. He doesn't say Christians never do "bad" things. The flesh continues to sin, and Sozo would never deny that. What Sozo does say is that when someone becomes a Christian they are identified with Christ and they are a new creation, their spirit is anyway. The flesh still breaks the law, but Christians are no longer identified by their flesh, so they are sinless.


EDIT:

Sozo, if I have misrepresented your view just clarify what I messed up......

 

[mercyschild]

I think you misunderstand Sozo's side. He doesn't say Christians never do "bad" things. The flesh continues to sin, and Sozo would never deny that. What Sozo does say is that when someone becomes a Christian they are identified with Christ and they are a new creation, their spirit is anyway. The flesh still breaks the law, but Christians are no longer identified by their flesh, so they are sinless.

If he truly believed that, he wouldn't keep going on in circles on saying that we ARE perfect and no longer have the capacity to sin...I am not going to go back into all his posts on this thread in order to counteract what you are saying; if he beleives that we are capable of sin, still, and 'bad' things, I will let him come back on and say that himself...but thanks...

Either way, I still am just going to agree on our disagreement...I enjoy this site, and want to keep it that way...

 

[Sozo]

So, tell me, all of you who believe we are totally perfect at salvation...

Have you ever...
Called in sick, just because you wanted a day off?
Made a promise to someone and made up a lame excuse to not keep that promise, even though you could have?
Spoken out of anger?
Acted out of rage?
Disciplined a child out of anger?
Mistreated any part of creation, just for your own pleasure?
Gossiped about the 'strange people down the street'?
Held onto bitterness about something or someone?
Told a 'little white lie' just to keep someone happy with you?
Hung out with the 'wrong crowd' just to look cool, but had no intentions of sharing your faith with them?
Stolen anything from anyone; whether that was time, goods, or any thing else?
Participated in activities you knew were not a good influence on your faith?
Turned away from someone you knew was in need of your help?
Swore at someone...or otherwise cursed?
Walked away from an opportunity to minister to someone, when you know you could have stayed?

Now, this is just a tiny list of those 'everyday' things that we may do, that make us imperfect, even in our salvation. :bang:

Enough said; I don't want to continue arguing about a point; I am just going to 'agree, that we disagree'... :thumb:

Are you righteous because you do right, or is it a gift?

If you say, it is because you do right, then you have never come to Christ.

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness"

I could ask you the same questions about the other things that God says about those who are saved.

If you are totally righteous, have you ever...

If you are totally holy, have you ever...

If you are totally complete in Him, have you ever...

And let me ask you this, do you believe that someone who is saved has eternal life, or do they get eternal life?

If you say "has", then why does someone who totally has eternal life die?



A few verses to consider...

"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."


"...and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority"

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

"...even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

"And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions"

"...to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect"

"...yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach"

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."

 

[mercyschild]

We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it-who hopes for what he already has? Our earthly bodies must still die; these are temporary vessals, not the eternal ones...

Righteousness is a gift; it is simply our 'right standing with God' because of what Christ has done; we continually work out our salvation through obedience to God's commands in the NT to love God, and love others as ourselves. So, in response to one of your previous comments, yes, in a sense, there are conditions in our working out our faith; we aren't doomed to eternal damnation, but we are to still strive to live out our faith through those two simple commands. With any relationship, our relationship with God is something we work at everyday of our lives.

Like I said, earlier, Sozo, I don't want to continue 'arguing' over something we simply don't agree fully on; I enjoy your input on alot of the other threads...and I enjoy this site...

 

[Sozo]

We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it-who hopes for what he already has?

Righteousness is a gift; it is simply our 'right standing with God' because of what Christ has done; we continually work out our salvation through obedience to God's commands in the NT to love God, and love others as ourselves. So, in response to one of your previous comments, yes, in a sense, there are conditions in our working out our faith; we aren't doomed to eternal damnation, but we are to still strive to live out our faith through those two simple commands. With any relationship, our relationship with God is something we work at everyday of our lives.

You just contradicted nearly every verse that I gave you.

I believe you are religious, mercyschild, but based on what you have just stated, there is no way that you are saved.

But, you can be.

 

[mercyschild]

You just contradicted nearly every verse that I gave you.

I believe you are religious, mercyschild, but based on what you have just stated, there is no way that you are saved.

But, you can be.

And who gives you the right to say whether someone is saved or not? You ARE not God...