ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[tetelestai]

Where did you go to Bible school? Which Open Theist authors do you read now?

I live in Edmonton. Any Chinooks coming our way?

Just what we need, another Canadian Open Theist

Just kidding Matalorian. Welcome to TOL

 

[Lighthouse]

Well guys I have been writing on Open Theism before it was called so back when I wrestled with such questions as predetermination back in the late 80's. I wrote my first major paper on it in Bible school in 1992 or 1993 but could not find any books on it. I just couldn't believe wholly with Calvinists or Armininists.

I find that Calvinists seem to always argue its that the rest of us just don't understand their theory. I agree that Calvinism is a theory of what is possible I simply don't believe their predetermined universe is the one that exists....it could but then God would be very different then I see what scripture describes Him to be.

The biggest obstacle faced when talking with hard line Calvinists on the subject of predetermination is that whenever they encounter a solid biblical argument that describes God outside of a context they are comfortable with, they simply cry 'Anthropomorphism'. It is like their all inclusive rebuttal pass to elitism.

For example if you question them on the FACT that scriptures lays out in detail that God changed his mind on mount Sinai, when telling Moses that He would destroy all of Israel, scripture says Moses REASONED with God and God REPENTED from the evil He INTENDED. They will undoubtedly pull out the magic 'Anthropomorphism' wand and poof it away. Or when God says in Gen 3 that He regretted creating man, WAND it away. Or when scripture uses words like IF my people will do such and such THEN I will do such and such....WAND AWAY.

Here is a great one. Why would Jesus tell the the disciples of the rich young ruler, that it is very HARD for the rich man to enter the kingdom....nothing Hard about being pre determined.

I think it would go a long way if we just agreed with Calvinists that in fact Open Theism totally agrees with Election. I mean its tough not to with all the scripture like for God so loved the WHOLE world that... but anyway, what if God has elected some to be the ones CALLED to preach the gospel and if we witness to some and pray for others that vessles that were destined for destruction, we can pray on their behalf and ask God to save them too. Maybe this is what scripture means when it says that Jesus would give us as an inheritance The Nations. Maybe we can actually pray for the lost and lead them to Jesus. I'm guessing that if God had chosen to elect some then this is probably what He would want them doing. Furthermore I'm guessing that sending us off to witness wouldn't be a total lost cause or leading us to do something even though it was pointless simply because we don't know the results.

I can't imagine my marrige working if I kept telling my wife to ask my for flowers knowing full well I was never going to get them for her not only because i'm just not nice but because in fact, I have no money and flowers don't even exist.

Its hard to tell people they will burn forever when they not only are locked in a room unable to come out and see Christ but even if they could escape to see him, they are blind and retarded so they can't....

i know though its all an ANTHROPOMORPHISM right?>

Welcome!

 

[DFT_Dave]

From, since, before the foundation of the world

This is a very important prepositional phrase that I will address. This will require a deeper understanding of proper Biblical exegesis. I want to look at all the verses where this phrase occurs. I would like all of you, who are willing to participate with me.

First of all, provide a definition, or an explanation, of this phrase. Next, use that to explain the relationship of these two passages.

Matthew 13:34 "All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter what has been hidden from (KJ, since RSV) the foundation of the world.”

Psalm 78:2 "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the LORD, and his might, and the wonders which he has wrought."

The first thing anyone should notice about these two passages is that they don't agree. In the Psalms the parables are not hidden since the foundation of the world, they are things that had been "heard and known" and were to be passed on to future generations. How could Matthew have misquoted the Psalms? The answer is he didn't, the translators for our Bible have mistranslated it.

The words in Matthew, "of the world" do not appear in any Greek text, it appears in the Geneva version of the Bible produced by Beza and Calvin, and then added later to the King James. The Matthew verse should read, "things kept secret because of a degeneration (katabole)." Then the two passages agree, Jesus was speaking in parables things hidden because of the degeneration, or moral decay, of Israel.

The Greek word, katabole, is mistranslated in this verse just as it is mistranslated in other verses, as we shall see.

Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

Here in Hebrews we have the Greek word "themelios" for foundation and the Greek word "gee" for the physical earth. We will see that when the Biblical writers use the word "katabole" and "kosmos" they mean something quite different then how our English Bibles have translated them. In Luke we have another example of this.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation (katabole) of the world (kosmos), may be required of this generation; 51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

It should be obvious that there were no prophets around at the beginning or creation of the earth, so their blood was not shed at that time. The verse should read, "the blood of the prophets, which was shed because of the degeneration of the world", and "because of this generation". The word "kosmos" refers to people not the physical planet.

Next we will see how all this will affect our translation of Ephesians 1:4.

--Dave

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The Greek word, katabole, is mistranslated in this verse just as it is mistranslated in other verses, as we shall see.


--Dave

The King James Bible is correct, as always. There are such things as mysteries that were hidden in the scriptures. For example, the mystery of Christ, the gospel of Christ, Paul's gospel.

Romans 16
25: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26: But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Cor 15
1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Cor 2
6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[chrysostom]

How do we know the KJV is always correct?

 

[DFT_Dave]

The King James Bible is correct, as always. There are such things as mysteries that were hidden in the scriptures. For example, the mystery of Christ, the gospel of Christ, Paul's gospel.

Romans 16
25: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26: But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Cor 15
1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Cor 2
6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

There was a time when everyone thought the Latin Vulgate was correct. The only truly correct Bible was written in Greek.

--Dave

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

There was a time when everyone thought the Latin Vulgate was correct. The only truly correct Bible was written in Greek.

--Dave

So, you believe only the originals were the word of God?

 

[Lon]

The trouble with your illustration is it's not scriptural.

--Dave

"Booo!"

Bbzzttt...does not compute. Your hang up needs to be hung up.:down:

"Hiss!"

One-liners: "Wow, you both just totally blew my position out of the water with that right there!"

GR, you never accepted the challenge so a one-liner is about all you got. Is it a rejoinder? Nope, pure asserting of the meaningless. With this kind of retort, my post stands.

 

[DFT_Dave]

So, you believe only the originals were the word of God?

The originals were written in Greek, maybe you didn't know that.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

"Booo!"

"Hiss!"

One-liners: "Wow, you both just totally blew my position out of the water with that right there!"

GR, you never accepted the challenge so a one-liner is about all you got. Is it a rejoinder? Nope, pure asserting of the meaningless. With this kind of retort, my post stands.

What challenge?

--Dave

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The originals were written in Greek, maybe you didn't know that.

--Dave

No need to talk down to me. I'm not a complete idiot...just
a partial one.

Originally Posted by SaulToPaul
So, you believe only the originals were the word of God?

 

[Lon]

You are kidding , right? The fact that God uses terms like before and since shows you that God is timeless? It shows me that He uses the chronological order of events as a reference when describing reality.

Okay, do it. Use temporal terms to show me how God is atemporal in the past: i.e. that He is eternal. It cannot be done.

Try it and I'll show you the logical holes left in the wake. God explains to us in temporal terms because that is all we understand.

You cannot explain to me in any words, the scope of an eternal past.

This again is a huge hurdle. I could never become OV because you conceive of a God who is limited to your understanding and comprehension.

Take this challenge, I can prove God exceeds your ability to grasp this because He does mine. Therefore, no words will convey the truth of this one thing adequately.

 

[Lon]

The originals were written in Greek, maybe you didn't know that.

--Dave

Obfuscating, and 'no' they weren't just written in Greek, "or did you know that?"

Just answer his question.

 

[Lon]

People do not conclude Calvinism from a simple reading of Scripture. They must be converted to it through deductive arguments and proof texts.


Unless you read and understand Sander's biblical e.g. and detailed argument on fulfillment/illustration, you should not be so quick to dismiss it with argumentum ad hominem.

Nang: My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with the facts. I was wrong before, now think I am right, but will not be burned and admit I am wrong again.

I understand Sander's just fine: He's wrong when he says God makes mistakes. That alone is more than discrediting, but I've spent years here addressing his other ideas as they've trickled down through OVers.
Had I known I was addressing Sanders that often, I would have read more from him before and the same with Boyd and Pinnock.

Your caricature of Nang comes RIGHT AFTER your call to not use ad hominem. Go figure.

You are sometimes as blind to your own frailties. When I tell you that you are 'asserting,' it means you aren't waxing eloquent or addressing real concerns. It means that you aren't being intellectually engaging and possibly dishonest about a truth given. It means you are not facing the truth for entrenchment. When I use 'assert' it means you aren't being taken seriously for engagement and the term is fully loaded.

 

[Lon]

God has a history. Timeless simultaneity does not compute.

Rev. 1:4 Tensed expressions are used of God. This supports divine temporality/endless time/duration, not incoherent timelessness.

Challenge again, for the umpteenth time: Use temporal terms to explain an eternal past and non-beginning.

I totally expect that you know it cannot be done and therefore my statements stand: If God cannot be expressed with our terms, He is logically beyond them and we are finite in our abilities. In the OV, it has been noted that God is constrained to human capacity. The flip side of this is that man over-elevates himself in His own estimation and mind, thinking he can grasp something beyond himself. I suppose the extra 50 points on my IQ score help me to actually know what and not, I'm capable of grasping where others are in denial.

"Oh no, God could not possibly escape my limited comprehension. He couldn't possibly be bigger than i imagine. It cannot possibly be a fact that an eternal past is beyond our language."

I don't mean to make any of you into simpletons with this, but I'm frustrated with lack of address, pure assertion, hot air sandwiches, and insubstantial address.

It is really simple: Admit that God is beyond your ken and that your logic only takes you so far and not a step further. Redeem yourselves.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

The Greek word, katabole, is mistranslated in this verse just as it is mistranslated in other verses, as we shall see.

Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

Here in Hebrews we have the Greek word "themelios" for foundation and the Greek word "gee" for the physical earth. We will see that when the Biblical writers use the word "katabole" and "kosmos" they mean something quite different then how our English Bibles have translated them. In Luke we have another example of this.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation (katabole) of the world (kosmos), may be required of this generation; 51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

It should be obvious that there were no prophets around at the beginning or creation of the earth, so their blood was not shed at that time. The verse should read, "the blood of the prophets, which was shed because of the degeneration of the world", and "because of this generation". The word "kosmos" refers to people not the physical planet.

Dave, you are setting up a great defense for limited atonement. Thanks :thumb:

You are correct about the word "world" being translated such from two different Greek words. One meaning earth , the other meaning "order'....not "people".

ochlos means crowdof people
laos means a people, tribe, people group

"world" never has the meaning of "all without exception". It does mean, in this verse, the "order" of ungodly men. One must qualify the parameters of the "order". vs 51 sets it as since Abel.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

The King James Bible is correct, as always. There are such things as mysteries that were hidden in the scriptures. For example, the mystery of Christ, the gospel of Christ, Paul's gospel.

....are you a KJV only person??

I thought that you believed that Paul's Gospel was hidden in God.....not in Scripture? Revealed to Paul directly from the risen Christ...?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

....are you a KJV only person??

All of these versions cannot all be the word of God. Where is the word of God he promised to preserve?

I thought that you believed that Paul's Gospel was hidden in God.....not in Scripture? Revealed to Paul directly from the risen Christ...?

gospel of Christ - hidden in the scriptures-revealed directly by Christ to Paul
gospel of grace of God - hidden in God-revealed directly by Christ to Paul

I went through all of this with the Hilstonator.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

So, you believe only the originals were the word of God?

The Word of God will be preserved and maintained throughout the ages. That is Scriptural. But how? With so many translations and all.

The originals were in Hebrew and Greek, we all know that. But there are so many translations and even copies of the originals.

Every word may not be translated correctly ( and they weren't). But the essense of what God said is preserved. It takes study and digging to understand. There is enough to be able to figure out what God is saying....even if a word was translated incorrectly.

We need to understand it according to how the original audience understood it- with all the idioms and figures.

For what it's worth-- the KJV has many a misttranslation.


I don't think it too hard of a stretch to believe that God is able to preserve His Word.....

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I don't think it too hard of a stretch to believe that God is able to preserve His Word.....

Where is it? If you had to put your hands on it right now, where would you go?