ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Nang]

The first thing anyone should notice about these two passages is that they don't agree.

Any serious bible student learns that the Holy Scriptures always agree. There is no contradiction in God's Word.

In the Psalms the parables are not hidden since the foundation of the world,

Parables are always used to limit the teachings of God. Whether O.T. or N.T. a parable is a parable.

they are things that had been "heard and known" and were to be passed on to future generations.

The truths of God are shared by God with the sons of God, alone. Otherwise, the ungodly hear the teachings of God in parables that they are not allowed to understand. (Isaiah 6:9-10, John 12:239-41)

The words in Matthew, "of the world" do not appear in any Greek text, it appears in the Geneva version of the Bible produced by Beza and Calvin, and then added later to the King James. The Matthew verse should read, "things kept secret because of a degeneration (katabole)." Then the two passages agree, Jesus was speaking in parables things hidden because of the degeneration, or moral decay, of Israel.

The point being, both Israel, as well as the world at large exists in rebellion against God; living in the darkness of unbelief and sin. The spiritual things of God are kept from the unbelievers as a punishment; just as God cast Adam and Eve out of the garden, separating them from the tree of life . . .so all sinners universally . . .are cursed with unbelief and enmity against God.

These may hear the gospel preached and the bible taught, but it comes to them without the Holy Spirit's illumination and inspiration due to their self-imposed "degeneration." Many hear the call of the gospel, but only a few are chosen and given spiritual ears and new hearts to comprehend and understand the parabolic truths of God. (Matthew 22:14)

Nang

 

[godrulz]

This is exactly why we say God is timeless. It has more to do with the fact that we cannot comprehend something such as this in temporal terms, neither are we capable of capsulizing it with language. This is exactly the problem with an eternal past. There is never a 'before' that isn't preceded by another 'before' and we have to use future terms just to explain the problem to some degree without fully giving it comprehension: "His past 'is' going on forever." We have no term for past events that do not end that convey the complexity.

Bbzzttt...does not compute. Your hang up needs to be hung up.:down:

 

[Nang]

Bbzzttt...does not compute. Your hang up needs to be hung up.:down:

Lon's teachings compute with me . . .and I am only a female.

There must be wiring missing in your hard-drive.

 

[godrulz]

The trouble with your illustration is it's not scriptural.

--Dave

He is confusing calling for service and individual salvation. God called Judas as an apostle (no exegetical distinction from the others, at the time). THis was based on exhaustive past and present knowledge and anticipatory knowledge of the future possibilities. Judas BECAME a son of perdition, but was not chosen in this state. There is a chronology blurred by the timeless crowd.

A better illustration would be two godly individuals who chose to get married. At the time, they had good character and commitment. Down the road, one spouse has an affair, becomes alcoholic, and abusive. God was not wrong in giving wisdom and blessing to the couple. What was wrong was a subsequent abuse of free will and rejection of God's will. They could get on track by submitting to God or remain estranged by grieving and resisting God and His will.

Determinism is unbiblical and incoherent. Simple foreknowledge based on timeless theories also offer no providential advantage since God could not change the foreseen future even if he wanted to (if God saw the marriage disaster and intervened so they could not get married, then His foreknowledge would have been false...there is no help in determinism or simple foreknowledge for the reality of our daily experiences...God walks with us and uses His power, wisdom, and intelligence to help us, not a crystal ball nor coercion/micromanagement).

 

[godrulz]

Lon's teachings compute with me . . .and I am only a female.

There must be wiring missing in your hard-drive.

They compute with you because they agree with your preconceptions, not because they are necessarily true or defensible (it is hard for someone locked into a system to see objectively).

I understand what he is saying, but it is indefensible logically and biblically.

http://www.amazon.com/Perspectives-Doctrine-God-Four-Views/dp/0805430601

This is a readable book on various views. You would probably be in Helm's camp (did not do a good job staying on topic), while I concur with Sander's refreshing insights that are clear vs muddy (like the others).

 

[Nang]

God called Judas as an apostle (no exegetical distinction from the others, at the time). THis was based on exhaustive past and present knowledge and anticipatory knowledge of the future possibilities. Judas BECAME a son of perdition, but was not chosen in this state. There is a chronology blurred by the timeless crowd.

You keep saying this, but it is not true.

God determined Judas fate and prophesied Judas' betrayal:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Yiour name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled." John 17:12

What Scriptures?

"Even My own familiar friend in whom I trusted; who ate My bread, has lifted up his heel against Me." Psalm 41:9*

"Let his days be few, and let another take his office." Psalm 109:8

*Fulfillment of Genesis 3:15:

"I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed (Christ); He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel."

"You went forth for the salvation of Your people. For salvation with Your Anointed (Christ), You struck the head from the house of the wicked, by laying bare from foundation to neck. Selah." Habakkuk 3:13



Nang

 

[godrulz]

You keep saying this, but it is not true.

God determined Judas fate and prophesied Judas' betrayal:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Yiour name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled." John 17:12

What Scriptures?

"Even My own familiar friend in whom I trusted; who ate My bread, has lifted up his heel against Me." Psalm 41:9*

"Let his days be few, and let another take his office." Psalm 109:8

*Fulfillment of Genesis 3:15:

"I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed (Christ); He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel."

"You went forth for the salvation of Your people. For salvation with Your Anointed (Christ), You struck the head from the house of the wicked, by laying bare from foundation to neck. Selah." Habakkuk 3:13



Nang

Jesus said this after his heart had shifted, not in eternity past. Sanders builds a solid case from other e.g. how 'fulfilled' is not always predictive, but illustrative. The OT verses have a primary historical meaning, but are applied by way of illustration to Christ or Judas, etc. If Judas would have been faithful, these verses would remain historically fulfilled in B.C. and applied to someone else or no one else (you are looking in the rear view mirror and begging the question).

Judas was not named in the OT, but verses that parallel his experience are applied to him by way of illustration, not prediction or determinism.

There are 43 quintillian Rubik's Cube moves. There are about 500 billion billion checkers positions on the board.

How does God deterministically control millions of people over the centuries in how they will move and respond? Why would he even control this? Are you sure libertarian free will is not self-evident?

For the simple foreknowledge crowd, how can God see these myriads of moves and combinations if they have not been made yet? He knows them as possible, but they are vastly contingent and unsettled, so should logically be known as such, even by an omniscient being. The future is fundamentally different from the fixed past or present, even for God. Timelessness is an assumption, but unnecessary and incoherent to explain the personal God's existence and experiences.

If one is wrong about one assumption, the rest tend to fall as the conclusions no longer follow.

 

[Nang]

They compute with you because they agree with your preconceptions, not because they are necessarily true or defensible (it is hard for someone locked into a system to see objectively).

You are unaware of my entire testimony and lifelong history.

I was not always a Reformer, but came to the Calvinistic view only after years of intense bible study.

IOW's, I learned the truth from the Holy Scriptures despite temporary, erroneous, and wicked influences that attempted to discourage my studies. I did not preconceive my present views. I came to my present understandings of Scripture strictly by the grace and power of the Spirit of Christ who was given to lead me into all truth. (John 16:13)

I understand what he is saying, but it is indefensible logically and biblically.

It is not enough for you to assert this . . .you should be able and willing to demonstrate how Lon is logically and biblically incorrect.

But you cannot, and are less than willing to even make the effort . . .

It is easier for you to just spout off and oppose Lon's fine thinking without giving logical or biblical reasons of your own.

Tsk, tsk . . .

Nang

 

[Nang]

Jesus said this after his heart had shifted, not in eternity past.

What????

Jesus "heart shifted?"

What kind of nonsense is that?

Sanders builds a solid case from other e.g. how 'fulfilled' is not always predictive, but illustrative.

Well then, Sanders is a nut . . .

The OT verses have a primary historical meaning, but are applied by way of illustration to Christ or Judas, etc. If Judas would have been faithful, these verses would remain historically fulfilled in B.C. and applied to someone else or no one else (you are looking in the rear view mirror and begging the question).

Judas was not named in the OT, but verses that parallel his experience are applied to him by way of illustration, not prediction or determinism.

Judas was the "friend" of Jesus that "lifted his heel" against Jesus (in the greatest act of betrayal); proving to be lost and the "son of perdition."

Jesus taught that this all occurred "in order that the Scriptures be fulfilled," (John 17:12) . . . but nut cases like fellas named Sanders and Godrulz deny the teachings of God's Holy Word.

Too bad for Sanders and Godrulz . . .

Scripture proves true; the skeptics prove false.

There are 43 quintillian Rubik's Cube moves. There are about 500 billion billion checkers positions on the board.

How does God deterministically control millions of people over the centuries in how they will move and respond?

Only an unbelieving skeptic would compare the providential wonders of God with a Rubik's cube. Your mental hard-drive is definitely defective!

And your heart is hardening further day by day . . .

Nang

 

[godrulz]

Your view is determinism, not providence.

It was Judas' heart that shifted, not Jesus' (see how you are prone to misunderstanding what I am saying?).

The verb tense is clear that Judas 'became', not that he always 'was'.

People do not conclude Calvinism from a simple reading of Scripture. They must be converted to it through deductive arguments and proof texts.

Even though you are a each:, it seems that it will be hard to teach old dogs new tricks.:sheep:

Unless you read and understand Sander's biblical e.g. and detailed argument on fulfillment/illustration, you should not be so quick to dismiss it with argumentum ad hominem.

Nang: My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with the facts. I was wrong before, now think I am right, but will not be burned and admit I am wrong again.

 

[Delmar]

This is exactly why we say God is timeless. It has more to do with the fact that we cannot comprehend something such as this in temporal terms, neither are we capable of capsulizing it with language. This is exactly the problem with an eternal past. There is never a 'before' that isn't preceded by another 'before' and we have to use future terms just to explain the problem to some degree without fully giving it comprehension: "His past 'is' going on forever." We have no term for past events that do not end that convey the complexity.

You are kidding , right? The fact that God uses terms like before and since shows you that God is timeless? It shows me that He uses the chronological order of events as a reference when describing reality.

 

[Lighthouse]

Before the foundation of the world is different than since the foundation of the world...

The foundation of the world would be Gen 1:2 and forward.
Heaven and earth existed before that. So, yes, there could be time before and since the foundation of the world.

I am, but I think you are assuming that "before the foundation of the world" is "before" creation, Genesis 1:1 (KJV). The "world" doesn't necessarily equal "creation".

You know, you're not doing anything to help your side of the argument. Of course, it's not helping ours either. So why do you keep talking about this?

And whether or not someone assumes that "before the world," means "before creation," makes no difference. If there was no time, there could be no before.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

And whether or not someone assumes that "before the world," means "before creation," makes no difference. If there was no time, there could be no before.

Who ever said that there was "no time" before the "world"?

And, I'm not making a case for anything. Dr. Dave entitled a post
"Before the foundation of the world" and then proceeded to quote a scripture that used the phrase "since the foundation of the world". I think he's confused.

 

[Lighthouse]

Who ever said that there was "no time" before the "world"?

Was there time before creation?

 

[tetelestai]

Dr. Dave entitled a post
"Before the foundation of the world" and then proceeded to quote a scripture that used the phrase "since the foundation of the world". I think he's confused.

Dr. Dave ?

I thought he was Super Dave Osbourne.

 

[tetelestai]

I don't understand your comment. We agree that there was angelic rebellion before man rebelled. So?

Gregory Boyd has a trilogy (in progress) about spiritual warfare vs blueprint models that factor this in. There is no conflict with OVT, but full support for it.

Expand on why you think there is an issue. You stated observations that do not lead to your conclusion.

Gap THEORY? Gen. 1:1-2 is part of the creation week. God and the angelic realm preexisted the material universe.

The phrase refers to the beginning. God existed before the world and man. The world did not exist before the world?!

If you agree there was an angelic rebellion, then how did God resolve the rebellion?

To resolve the angelic rebellion, a creature inferior to angels was created and placed on one planet (Psalms 8:5; Heb 2:7). Angels were created with the ability to travel throughout the universe with all of its galaxies. Generally their abode was in the second heaven, and they had access to the third heaven for angelic convocations (Job 1:6). Certain angels, such as Lucifer, lived in the third heaven (Ezek 28:13-15). But when the angelic fall (rebellion) occurred in the third heaven, and after the revolt that took a third of the angels with him, Satan and the fallen angels were cast down to a very tiny planet which we call “earth.”

Apparently, the earth was a very beautiful place at that time (Gen. 1:1), and he liked it. He had one fantastic time here and finally got our planet in such a mess that God destroyed it (Gen 1:2; Jer 4:23-26). Under Satan, the earth had become what the original language describes as ‘’tohu wa-bohu,” which means that it was desolate, unsightly, ruined.

So the Lord cut Satan off from his headquarters here. He covered the whole earth, which was now no more than a garbage dump, with an ice pack. It stayed that way for an unknown period of time, during which time Satan and the fallen angels were sentenced to hell. The earth had been in existence for perhaps billions of years. But when Satan made his objection to being sentenced to hell, God (the Holy Spirit) removed the ice pack and set about reestablishing the earth and putting it in order. In six days (literal days), God reestablished the earth and made it habitable for a new creature — man. To put it briefly: in order to resolve the angelic conflict, an inferior creature (man) was placed on one planet (the earth), possessing one thing which the angels had — free will or volition (Psalm 8:3-5; Heb 2:7).

 

[dreadknought]

:think: ummm... now I'm wondering where OMEGA is

 

[godrulz]

You are kidding , right? The fact that God uses terms like before and since shows you that God is timeless? It shows me that He uses the chronological order of events as a reference when describing reality.

God has a history. Timeless simultaneity does not compute.

Rev. 1:4 Tensed expressions are used of God. This supports divine temporality/endless time/duration, not incoherent timelessness.

 

[Matalorian]

Open Election

Open Election

Well guys I have been writing on Open Theism before it was called so back when I wrestled with such questions as predetermination back in the late 80's. I wrote my first major paper on it in Bible school in 1992 or 1993 but could not find any books on it. I just couldn't believe wholly with Calvinists or Armininists.

I find that Calvinists seem to always argue its that the rest of us just don't understand their theory. I agree that Calvinism is a theory of what is possible I simply don't believe their predetermined universe is the one that exists....it could but then God would be very different then I see what scripture describes Him to be.

The biggest obstacle faced when talking with hard line Calvinists on the subject of predetermination is that whenever they encounter a solid biblical argument that describes God outside of a context they are comfortable with, they simply cry 'Anthropomorphism'. It is like their all inclusive rebuttal pass to elitism.

For example if you question them on the FACT that scriptures lays out in detail that God changed his mind on mount Sinai, when telling Moses that He would destroy all of Israel, scripture says Moses REASONED with God and God REPENTED from the evil He INTENDED. They will undoubtedly pull out the magic 'Anthropomorphism' wand and poof it away. Or when God says in Gen 3 that He regretted creating man, WAND it away. Or when scripture uses words like IF my people will do such and such THEN I will do such and such....WAND AWAY.

Here is a great one. Why would Jesus tell the the disciples of the rich young ruler, that it is very HARD for the rich man to enter the kingdom....nothing Hard about being pre determined.

I think it would go a long way if we just agreed with Calvinists that in fact Open Theism totally agrees with Election. I mean its tough not to with all the scripture like for God so loved the WHOLE world that... but anyway, what if God has elected some to be the ones CALLED to preach the gospel and if we witness to some and pray for others that vessles that were destined for destruction, we can pray on their behalf and ask God to save them too. Maybe this is what scripture means when it says that Jesus would give us as an inheritance The Nations. Maybe we can actually pray for the lost and lead them to Jesus. I'm guessing that if God had chosen to elect some then this is probably what He would want them doing. Furthermore I'm guessing that sending us off to witness wouldn't be a total lost cause or leading us to do something even though it was pointless simply because we don't know the results.

I can't imagine my marrige working if I kept telling my wife to ask my for flowers knowing full well I was never going to get them for her not only because i'm just not nice but because in fact, I have no money and flowers don't even exist.

Its hard to tell people they will burn forever when they not only are locked in a room unable to come out and see Christ but even if they could escape to see him, they are blind and retarded so they can't....

i know though its all an ANTHROPOMORPHISM right?>

 

[godrulz]

Where did you go to Bible school? Which Open Theist authors do you read now?

I live in Edmonton. Any Chinooks coming our way?