ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

godrulz

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P.S. If Calvinists and Open Theists would pay more attention to what happened before man was created, it is my opinion there would be less Calvinists and Open Theists.


I don't understand your comment. We agree that there was angelic rebellion before man rebelled. So?

Gregory Boyd has a trilogy (in progress) about spiritual warfare vs blueprint models that factor this in. There is no conflict with OVT, but full support for it.

Expand on why you think there is an issue. You stated observations that do not lead to your conclusion.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Before the foundation of the world

This is a very important prepositional phrase that I will address. This will require a deeper understanding of proper Biblical exegesis. I want to look at all the verses where this phrase occurs. I would like all of you, who are willing (or called :) ) to participate with me.

First of all, provide a definition, or an explanation, of this phrase. Next, use that to explain the relationship of these two passages.

Matthew 13:34 "All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.”

Psalm 78:2 "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the LORD, and his might, and the wonders which he has wrought."

--Dave
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
These verses are very clear and easy to understand. Judas was chosen and yet was not saved, so his apostleship did not guarantee his salvation. Jesus chose from among his disciples who would be his apostles, Luke 6:13 "And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles." You're arguing against scripture if you disagree.

--Dave

Judas was chosen as an "apostle" in that he was an eye-witness to the incarnation of the Christ. Judas was never established as a witnessing or teaching "Apostle" nor was Judas chosen by God to be a regenerated disciple. Rather Luke is careful to report that Judas was chosen to become a traitor. (Luke 6:16)

Judas was chosen by God for the same reason God chose to raise up Pharoah:

"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Romans 9:17

I am a believer in double predestination; God has determined and chosen the fates of all men according to His sovereign will and wise purposes.

Paul's teachings in Romans 9 is clear on this matter.

Nang
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Before the foundation of the world is different than since the foundation of the world...

Then explain the difference that you see and why it is or is not important. You can read along or you can participate, say something about how these passages relate.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Judas was chosen as an "apostle" in that he was an eye-witness to the incarnation of the Christ. Judas was never established as a witnessing or teaching "Apostle" nor was Judas chosen by God to be a regenerated disciple. Rather Luke is careful to report that Judas was chosen to become a traitor. (Luke 6:16)

Judas was chosen by God for the same reason God chose to raise up Pharoah:

"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Romans 9:17

I am a believer in double predestination; God has determined and chosen the fates of all men according to His sovereign will and wise purposes.

Paul's teachings in Romans 9 is clear on this matter.

Nang

Luke is not saying what you imagine, anybody, who can read, can see that.

Paul teaches there is a a predestination according to the choice we make, he does not say that our choices are predestined. If we believe in Christ we are saved, if we don't we will perish. Your Calvinism causes you to distort many very easy to understand verses that conflict with double predestination.

--Dave
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Judas was chosen as an "apostle" in that he was an eye-witness to the incarnation of the Christ. Judas was never established as a witnessing or teaching "Apostle" nor was Judas chosen by God to be a regenerated disciple. Rather Luke is careful to report that Judas was chosen to become a traitor. (Luke 6:16)

Judas was chosen by God for the same reason God chose to raise up Pharoah:

"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Romans 9:17

I am a believer in double predestination; God has determined and chosen the fates of all men according to His sovereign will and wise purposes.

Paul's teachings in Romans 9 is clear on this matter.

Nang

Judas was named as an apostle, not an 'apostle'. He was not predestined to be the betrayer. Note the verb tense 'became'. He became the betrayer, but did not start out that way. God would not choose him for the inner circle after Jesus prayed for wisdom. Judas later fell away and became a son of perdition. This was not his intended destiny when he was born (and certainly not before he existed since he was not even an object of certain knowledge, even for an omniscient being who knows all that is knowable, not a nothing).

Double predestination is an odious doctrine, 'horrific' to even Calvin. It makes God's love and justice arbitrary. Like Satan, your concept has God desiring many to perish despite His ability to save if He wanted to. Satan wants all men to perish, but God only wants the majority to?! Come on.

Rom. 9-11 is the corporate election of Israel for service, not individual election for salvation. Take off the hyper-Calvinistic glasses.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Paul teaches there is a a predestination according to the choice we make,

This is simply untrue and unscriptural.

Where in Scripture is human choice taught as the condition of salvation? Where?

Do a word study of "choice," "choose," or "choosing," and you will discover such activity is ascribed to God alone.



he does not say that our choices are predestined.

Indeed, he does not.

What is "predestined" by God is the destinies of all men.



If we believe in Christ we are saved, if we don't we will perish.

Agreed. And it is sovereign God who controls and determines who will believe or not. Read Isaiah 6:9-10 and John 12:39-41.

Nang
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The foundation of the world would be Gen 1:2 and forward.
Heaven and earth existed before that. So, yes, there could be time before and since the foundation of the world.

:)

OK, now how do you explain these two passages, can you do this or not?

--Dave
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
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Hall of Fame
The foundation of the world would be Gen 1:2 and forward.
Heaven and earth existed before that. So, yes, there could be time before and since the foundation of the world.

:)

So you are not a "God is outside of time" guy?
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Before the foundation of the world

This is a very important prepositional phrase that I will address. This will require a deeper understanding of proper Biblical exegesis. I want to look at all the verses where this phrase occurs. I would like all of you, who are willing (or called :) ) to participate with me.

First of all, provide a definition, or an explanation, of this phrase. Next, use that to explain the relationship of these two passages.

Matthew 13:34 "All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.”

Psalm 78:2 "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the LORD, and his might, and the wonders which he has wrought."

--Dave
Matthew 13
9: Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10: And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11: He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12: For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14: And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16: But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17: For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


Matthew 13
34: All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


Psalm 78

1: Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2: I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
3: Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
4: We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
5: For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
6: That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
7: That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:
8: And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
9: The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
10: They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;


Seems pretty straightforward, I am not sure what this has to do with "before the foundation of the world" or "since the foundation of the world"...can you explain furthur?
 

Lon

Well-known member
The words before and since have no meaning, outside of time!
This is exactly why we say God is timeless. It has more to do with the fact that we cannot comprehend something such as this in temporal terms, neither are we capable of capsulizing it with language. This is exactly the problem with an eternal past. There is never a 'before' that isn't preceded by another 'before' and we have to use future terms just to explain the problem to some degree without fully giving it comprehension: "His past 'is' going on forever." We have no term for past events that do not end that convey the complexity.
 

Lon

Well-known member
John 6:66 "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him."

Were these disciples chosen or not?

--Dave

Was a soldier who is AWOL drafted or not?

Along this line, you may wish to be a Marine, but you don't choose the marines, they choose you. In the airforce, you may wish to be a pilot, but you do not choose to be a pilot, they choose you. Of course, unless there is a draft, man can choose to comply or not, but this is secondary. The primary need and consideration is whether the man is acceptable for the position and it is beyond the man. The military has first choice.

Scripture is replete with indications that man doesn't desire Spiritual naturally but that God calls and compels. Why is this? Perhaps there is similarity with meeting the President. Most of us don't desire to 'meet' whoever is in office but if an invitation is sent, we'd most all likely comply.
The question however remains answered: we do not choose to meet with the President, he chooses to meet with us. Sin separates us from God. We cannot enter in regardless of choice. An invitation is sent. I have no problem with you saying you choose to respond, my point however, is this is merely a secondary point and secondary consideration. He chooses, and first.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Was a soldier who is AWOL drafted or not?

Along this line, you may wish to be a Marine, but you don't choose the marines, they choose you. In the airforce, you may wish to be a pilot, but you do not choose to be a pilot, they choose you. Of course, unless there is a draft, man can choose to comply or not, but this is secondary. The primary need and consideration is whether the man is acceptable for the position and it is beyond the man. The military has first choice.

Scripture is replete with indications that man doesn't desire Spiritual naturally but that God calls and compels. Why is this? Perhaps there is similarity with meeting the President. Most of us don't desire to 'meet' whoever is in office but if an invitation is sent, we'd most all likely comply.
The question however remains answered: we do not choose to meet with the President, he chooses to meet with us. Sin separates us from God. We cannot enter in regardless of choice. An invitation is sent. I have no problem with you saying you choose to respond, my point however, is this is merely a secondary point and secondary consideration. He chooses, and first.

The trouble with your illustration is it's not scriptural.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Before the foundation of the world

This is a very important prepositional phrase that I will address. This will require a deeper understanding of proper Biblical exegesis. I want to look at all the verses where this phrase occurs. I would like all of you, who are willing (or called :) ) to participate with me.

First of all, provide a definition, or an explanation, of this phrase. Next, use that to explain the relationship of these two passages.

Matthew 13:34 "All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.”

Psalm 78:2 "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the LORD, and his might, and the wonders which he has wrought."

--Dave

The first thing anyone should notice about these two passages is that they don't agree. In the Psalms the parables are not hidden since the foundation of the world, they are things that had been "heard and known" and were to be passed on to future generations.

The words in Matthew, "of the world" do not appear in any Greek text, it appears in the Geneva version of the Bible produced by Beza and Calvin, and then added later to the King James. The Matthew verse should read, "things kept secret because of a degeneration (katabole)." Then the two passages agree, Jesus was speaking in parables things hidden because of the degeneration, or moral decay, of Israel.

The Greek word, katabole, is mistranslated in this verse just as it is mistranslated in other verses, as we shall see.

--Dave
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
The foundation of the world would be Gen 1:2 and forward.
Heaven and earth existed before that. So, yes, there could be time before and since the foundation of the world.

:)

Gap THEORY? Gen. 1:1-2 is part of the creation week. God and the angelic realm preexisted the material universe.

The phrase refers to the beginning. God existed before the world and man. The world did not exist before the world?!
 
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