ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Nang]

If she really believes that

Belief that God ordains and controls all His creation, does not exempt sinners from accountability and responsibility for their vile actions.

Rapists, rape. Molesters, molest.

Such vile acts can never be attributed to Holy God.

I would not defend a wrong view, but I do not have to hate her guts like I would Satan or Hitler.

Thank you godrulz . . .

I don't have the heart (or energy) to conjure up hatred for Clete, or even for the tyrants of this world (i.e. Hitler, Bin Laden, etc) . . . instead I rest in the wisdom of God who alone is worthy to execute righteous vengeance upon unrepentant sinners, who by nature are no different than myself, apart from His loving and saving grace.


I hate no other person.

However, I do hate every false way. (Psalm 119:104, 128)

Nang

 

[Lon]

When theology is so lofty or low that it forgets that it is a practice and life change that necessitates grace, mercy, and love; it is a white-wash veneer of futility. God invading our person will effect a gracious spirit.

The first mark of truth will be a life and demeanor that draws men, not repels them. The only ones Jesus repelled were these men of futile veneer and even some of them were drawn.

 

[MaryContrary]

Belief that God ordains and controls all His creation, does not exempt sinners from accountability and responsibility for their vile actions.

Rapists, rape. Molesters, molest.

Such vile acts can never be attributed to Holy God.

That is completely irrational.

The emphasize the point: I know psychotics who would recognize this as irrational.

A god ordains a man to be a rapist, controls that man even as he commits rape, then accounts the sin and the responsibiliy to that man?
And somehow none of it can be attributed to that evil god?

Let me express my love and loyalty to the true Living Father, our Lord, by stating publicly here and now that I would utterly reject such a god outright and willfully.

I can't even speak more on this and remain rational myself. :madmad:

 

[Lon]

That is completely irrational.

The emphasize the point: I know psychotics who would recognize this as irrational.

A god ordains a man to be a rapist, controls that man even as he commits rape, then accounts the sin and the responsibiliy to that man?
And somehow none of it can be attributed to that evil god?

Let me express my love and loyalty to the true Living Father, our Lord, by stating publicly here and now that I would utterly reject such a god outright and willfully.

I can't even speak more on this and remain rational myself. :madmad:

Who is being irrational? Think harder. If God is as OV says, when He sees these things happening He still has the power to stop them from occuring. Is God evil in the OV too, then? Of course not. You are merely :madmad: about 'when' He could have stopped it. OTHER than that, our answers are about the same.

 

[MaryContrary]

Who is being irrational? Think harder. If God is as OV says, when He sees these things happening He still has the power to stop them from occuring. Is God evil in the OV too, then? Of course not. You are merely :madmad: about 'when' He could have stopped it. OTHER than that, our answers are about the same.

What are you talking about? Nang says her god ordains and directly controls all creation, specifically including rapists and child molesters.
How is this not flat out claiming this god of her's rapes people? And this god is someone not responsible because it operates through a third party?

Step off. :mmph:
The god she's describing is evil, pure and simple. This is not my God. She's a blasphemer in attributing such evil to God.
Why God doesn't stop these things from happening is an entirely different matter. I understand that as well and despite having suffered such things myself, I understand perfectly why He did not intervene. Don't assume so much. Rather pay attention to what is actually being said.

 

[Nang]

What are you talking about? Nang says her god ordains and directly controls all creation, specifically including rapists and child molesters.
How is this not flat out claiming this god of her's rapes people?

Rape and child molesting are manifestations and results of human sin which separates the creature from the Creator. Evil is the deserved result of wickedness and slavery to sin.

Men rape and molest because they are sinners and held in bondage to Satan.

The only remedy is God's grace, which is not given out wholesale or universally.

So what you are really railing about, is that I teach the God of the Bible who has not determined to rescue all men from their natural inclinations.

You think it is illogical to teach that God saves only many, but not all.

You cannot logically explain how it is, that on one hand God loves all, but He only succeeds in saving some . . .and the rest continue to rape, and molest, despite Christ's (supposed) work on the cross.

How are we to comprehend that the Father (supposedly) wills to save all, and Jesus Christ died for all, and the Holy Spirit supposedly calls all, but in reality, only a remnant of humanity is ever saved?

What is your logical explanation for the reality that most of humanity remains ignorant of the gospel and the name of Christ, and enslaved to sin, death, and the devil?

You will find, if you take the time to unemotionally think this through, that both of us are saying blame for rape and molesting falls upon man, not God.

And this god is someone not responsible because it operates through a third party?

"Third party?" Who is mentioning a "third party?" Who would that "third party" possibly be . . . there is only Creator God and the creatures He has made.

Step off. :mmph:
The god she's describing is evil, pure and simple. This is not my God. She's a blasphemer in attributing such evil to God.

Actually, you are the one attributing evil to God. I am saying evil is attributable to wicked sinners.

Why God doesn't stop these things from happening is an entirely different matter. I understand that as well and despite having suffered such things myself, I understand perfectly why He did not intervene. Don't assume so much. Rather pay attention to what is actually being said.

If you understand it well, logically explain it. Why does God not just put an end to all wickedness and its evil results in this world? What is His reason for letting sin continue? How come a (supposed universal) atonement performed by Jesus Christ did not succeed in saving all men?

(I have the biblical answer, but I would be curious to hear how you go about confessing you do not believe God is in control of His creation, but that the inmates are running the asylum.)

Nang

 

[Lon]

What are you talking about? Nang says her god ordains and directly controls all creation, specifically including rapists and child molesters.
How is this not flat out claiming this god of her's rapes people? And this god is someone not responsible because it operates through a third party?

Step off. :mmph:
The god she's describing is evil, pure and simple. This is not my God. She's a blasphemer in attributing such evil to God.
Why God doesn't stop these things from happening is an entirely different matter. I understand that as well and despite having suffered such things myself, I understand perfectly why He did not intervene. Don't assume so much. Rather pay attention to what is actually being said.

Sorry, didn't mean to push your button but trying to explain. I will be 'stepping off' now and let you resume your discussion with Nang.

 

[Nang]

Sorry, didn't mean to push your button but trying to explain. I will be 'stepping off' now and let you resume your discussion with Nang.

Awwww . . .c'mon, Lon, stick around.

We can tag-team and maybe get some real answers out of Mary Contrary!

Nang

 

[tetelestai]

What are you talking about? Nang says her god ordains and directly controls all creation, specifically including rapists and child molesters.

Corrie Ten Boom (of “The Hiding Place”), could not understand why God let her sister Betsie die in the concentration camp they were in during WWII.

They were Dutch, but were in the camp for hiding Jews in their house. While in the camp they preached the Gospel of Christ to the other prisoners. Corrie prayed everyday for God to help Betsie who was sick.

When Betsie died, Corrie had a hard time with it. She struggled for years as to why God let her sister die under such horrible conditions to such evil people.

Then about thirty years later, while evangelizing in China, when thousands of Chinese people were saved, it became clear why God let Betsie die in the concentration camp.

Had Betsie not died, Corrrie wouldn’t be in China, and the thousands of people she saw believing in Christ, would not be doing so.

When bad things like war, murder, rape, etc happen, it doesn’t mean that God isn’t in control. God let’s everything happen for His plan, He is in complete control. When these bad things happen it is impossible for us at the time to understand how, or why God lets it happen.

However, God’s plan is the only acceptable plan where the "end justifies the means".

 

[Lighthouse]

Corrie Ten Boom (of “The Hiding Place”), could not understand why God let her sister Betsie die in the concentration camp they were in during WWII.

They were Dutch, but were in the camp for hiding Jews in their house. While in the camp they preached the Gospel of Christ to the other prisoners. Corrie prayed everyday for God to help Betsie who was sick.

When Betsie died, Corrie had a hard time with it. She struggled for years as to why God let her sister die under such horrible conditions to such evil people.

Then about thirty years later, while evangelizing in China, when thousands of Chinese people were saved, it became clear why God let Betsie die in the concentration camp.

Had Betsie not died, Corrrie wouldn’t be in China, and the thousands of people she saw believing in Christ, would not be doing so.

When bad things like war, murder, rape, etc happen, it doesn’t mean that God isn’t in control. God let’s everything happen for His plan, He is in complete control. When these bad things happen it is impossible for us at the time to understand how, or why God lets it happen.

However, God’s plan is the only acceptable plan where the "end justifies the means".

Just Because God doesn't stop it from happening doesn't mean it's part of His plan. Idiot.

Seriously, learn to think.

 

[tetelestai]

Just Because God doesn't stop it from happening doesn't mean it's part of His plan. Idiot.

Seriously, learn to think.

Everything is part of His plan, right down to the movement of every proton, electron, and neutron of every atom and molecule of every living thing. He is in complete control.

AND, we have free will at the same time.

Corrie Ten Boom understood it, but apparently you and all the other OVT’s can’t.

 

[Lighthouse]

Everything is part of His plan, right down to the movement of every proton, electron, and neutron of every atom and molecule of every living thing. He is in complete control.

AND, we have free will at the same time.

Corrie Ten Boom understood it, but apparently you and all the other OVT’s can’t.

:rotfl:

Snardblott!

 

[nicholsmom]

Just Because God doesn't stop it from happening doesn't mean it's part of His plan. Idiot.

Seriously, learn to think.

Consider Brandon, if God is able to intervene, but doesn't, what can that mean other than the obvious: it is part of His plan? Even if it is just the part where He gives us freedom to act - it's still His plan. That a thing is part of God's plan doesn't mean that He desired it, but it certainly means He allowed it; and if He allowed it, then He has a purpose in it. Since God is all good (you do believe that, don't you?), then His purposes are all good. So every wicked thing allowed by God by His inaction is allowed for a good purpose.

What man has meant for evil, God has meant for good - as Joseph so aptly said.

 

[Lighthouse]

Consider Brandon, if God is able to intervene, but doesn't, what can that mean other than the obvious: it is part of His plan? Even if it is just the part where He gives us freedom to act - it's still His plan. That a thing is part of God's plan doesn't mean that He desired it, but it certainly means He allowed it; and if He allowed it, then He has a purpose in it. Since God is all good (you do believe that, don't you?), then His purposes are all good. So every wicked thing allowed by God by His inaction is allowed for a good purpose.

What man has meant for evil, God has meant for good - as Joseph so aptly said.

Care to quote the actual verse?

 

[nicholsmom]

Care to quote the actual verse?

Since you seem unable to navigate Biblegateway for yourself, O Equal of God:

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive​

Genesis 50:20

 

[Lighthouse]

Since you seem unable to navigate Biblegateway for yourself, O Equal of God:

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive​

Genesis 50:20

I can search it just fine for myself. But I had no way of knowing which version you were using.

 

[Nick M]

That is completely irrational.

The emphasize the point: I know psychotics who would recognize this as irrational.

A god ordains a man to be a rapist, controls that man even as he commits rape, then accounts the sin and the responsibiliy to that man?
And somehow none of it can be attributed to that evil god?

Let me express my love and loyalty to the true Living Father, our Lord, by stating publicly here and now that I would utterly reject such a god outright and willfully.

I can't even speak more on this and remain rational myself. :madmad:

Welcome to bizzaro world, where morons think they make sense.

Everything is part of His plan, right down to the movement of every proton, electron, and neutron of every atom and molecule of every living thing. He is in complete control.

AND, we have free will at the same time.

And so does a robot being controlled by a joy stick.

So every wicked thing allowed by God by His inaction is allowed for a good purpose.

You are a fruit loop.

Romans 3:8

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

God is rightly judging those that are doing evil. That verse does not support your position. Paul is mocking people that say that, if you didn't know.

 

[Lon]

Welcome to bizzaro world, where morons think they make sense.

You mean all of Christianity but you? hmmm.....

And so does a robot being controlled by a joy stick.

What? How can you not agree with what he just said? What specifically are you objecting to?

You are a fruit loop.

Romans 3:8

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

God is rightly judging those that are doing evil. That verse does not support your position. Paul is mocking people that say that, if you didn't know.

A frootloop? Much nicer than a few others on here but even so, was it my imagination or were you much nicer when you first came here?
If so, "Run away!" Nice isn't necessarily godly, but it mostly seems so and there are good scriptures that support the idea.

I totally agree with your point, but there is a difference between what God allows and what is undesirable. You made the switch here in thinking between what God intends and what man should not do.

Again, there is little difference between our views, logically, than 'when' God allows. We of Foreknown and foreordained persuastion simply say He knew before it actually happened. The OV does too, just limits the amount of time before it was known. That's the argument between us.

 

[tetelestai]

And so does a robot being controlled by a joy stick.

No, a robot is not a free moral agent.

A robot does not have a free will

A robot does not have free volition

 

[tetelestai]

:rotfl:

Snardblott!

But you said:

You're biggest failure is the failure to recognize that He is always in control, and we never are.